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Do you feel that the rail line inhibits development of the City? (continued)
In order for Newcastle to prosper and develop, we, as a city, need to develop a change strategy that will allow us to progress. At present, we have a dilapidated city centre with numerous empty shops and little incentive for small businesses to continue operating in the once thriving Newcastle CBD. Therefore, I feel that it is necessary that development be allow to occur. The regeneration of Newcastle should not hinge on a rail line that could easily be replaced by a sophisticated network of buses to service the people currently utilising the rail network. Furthermore, if a developer is read more
Comment 1 19 Oct 2008, 6:18 PM
650 million dollars! I have not heard this figure from any Government represenative at any time for Newcastle. Why is there any debate over the rail line. Move it back so this development can proceed. I have stated before, the NSW Government does not have to spend massive amounts of money to change the transport system. At first all that is needed is to make Hunter street one way into Newcastle east and King street one way out. Hunter street has six lanes, use one lane for parking, one lane for non stop bus to Newcastle east, which leaves another four lanes for any other traffic. Make sure the train line finishes on the western side of Stewart avenue Wickham and build a pedestrian and pushbike overpass. Traffic would flow to Industrial drive without stopping at train gates. Light rail or trams can be another project if found to be needed. Lets just get right behind this project, and stop our NSW MP's and Premier hiding behind a whitewash opinion that the people of Newcastle want to keep this Iron Curtain deviding our city. Jodie you know what needs to be done, fight for it.
Comment 1.1 19 Oct 2008, 6:52 PM
Well said ideas man. With the one way paired streets arrangement, you would have greatly enhanced traffic efficiency (as Traffic Lights require fewer phases, etc). The effect is you need fewer total lanes. You could get then get rid of some of the Asphalt in both streets and widen the footpaths to allow for street tree planting and street dining (something like parts of Church Street, Parramatta).
Comment 1.2 19 Oct 2008, 11:23 PM
Lets be absolutely clear Ideas Man the funded GPT proposal only covers their little site. (about the size of a coal ship deck)
GPT is not putting up any money for the rest of the CBD or for the removal of the rail line.
It will be very helpful if you read the City Centre Plan documents then your enthusiasm can be channeled with out being railroaded.
Did you make a written submission to the City Centre Plan? I would be interested to read a copy.
Comment 1.2.1 20 Oct 2008, 7:50 AM
Bigfeller, open your eyes, Newcastle needs the development, and ongoing jobs that the GPT is going to bring with $650. The last i heard the State Government had resposibility for the rail line. Like most Novocastrians i was very heartened that such a development was taking place, and like most Novocastrians i would be very happy to see the end of the rail into the east end. But unfortunately there are vocal unchangable people who see any change as a threat to how it use to be. Bigfeller time does not stand still, and the young people deserve the jobs and vitality of a make over of Newcastle. It has started with Honeysuckle and the next step is to join the city and harbour. You made no reference in your attack of my proposal for Hunter street, does it's simplicity scare you?
Comment 1.2.1.1 20 Oct 2008, 11:47 PM
Ideas Man Please read my comment in th Topic. Newcastle has spoken.
I am glad you have supported my one way concept! This was a key point in my written City Centre Plan submission. It was also taken up by some other submissions.
Comment 1.2.1.1.1 22 Oct 2008, 4:29 PM
Bigfeller, if you have a good read around this site and pay attention to how the majority are voting, you would realise that it's not a case of "Newcastle has spoken". Newcastle IS SPEAKING and the resounding majority are crying for the removal of the rail line!
Comment 1.2.1.1.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 11:48 AM
Removed by moderator. Comment was deemed offensive, inappropriate or spam.
Comment 1.2.2 21 Oct 2008, 10:38 AM
It may well be the case that that the GPT proposal only covers their site, but surely you don't expect a single developer to come in and revitalise a whole city on its own.
What you seem to be unable to comprehend is that this development may be the catalyst for other developers to come to Newcastle and continue to help the revitalisation of the city.
GPT are the ones sticking their neck out and taking the initial risk here in the hope that their development will get the ball rolling and cause a flow on effect of further rebuilding of an otherwise run down CBD.
I guess some people just can't see the woods for the trees.
Comment 1.2.3 21 Oct 2008, 6:36 PM
Of coarse GPT are only funding there little site, why the hell should they fund further developement and/or infrastructure, thats for state or federal government, but if this GPT proposal doesnt go ahead you can be absolutely sure that Jodie and the state or federal governments will do exactly as they have done forever...NOTHING.
Comment 1.2.4 22 Oct 2008, 1:09 PM
Why should GPT be made to pay for a rail line that should had been gone years ago?????....why can't we as Novocastrians grow up and pay our own way ....If it wasn't for GPT injecting $650 mil into Newcastle CBD it would continue to go further down the hole it is travelling. "Build and they people will come". Please look forward!!!!!! for the sake of our children.
Comment 1.2.4.1 25 Oct 2008, 2:37 PM
And Robyn you are prepared to put your hand in your pocket to pay for it or would you remain as most do, reluctant to pay any increase in taxes. We moan all of the time about taxes but here you are advocating a substantial increase to increase a developers profits. Does not stand up to logical thinking to me.
Comment 1.2.4.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 8:17 PM
And Judo there probably would be less "extra" payment than what we pay now for the under utilised behemoth of heavy rail...with the added benefits of that end of Newcastle being nicer, greener and fuller of spending/working/visiting people...I know which I would prefer to pay for.
Comment 1.2.4.1.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 9:40 PM
How are we going to get all of these "new" people into town and why will they come? Some will come in during the early stage from the opening of the new centre but as we have seen with the Market Street markets, the novelty wears off and people want something more substantial. They just revert to their nearest shopping centre because that is most convenient. And you are still living that pipe dream of a green corridor. How many times must you be told.... NO GREEN CORRIDOR. Check GPT's website.
Comment 1.2.4.1.1.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 2:47 PM
Judo, So your proposal is even though it is clearly broken please dont fix it? Think about where we are going not where you have been, there is an opportunity for fantastic change. If everyone had that attitude we would all still be travelling via horse & cart becasue no one dared to risk something new.
Comment 1.2.4.1.1.1.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 3:43 PM
David, it is the CBD that is broken, all along Hunter Street, not the rail system. It currently brings thousands into the CBD on a daily basis. Sure it can be improved but we have to fix the CBD.
Comment 1.2.4.1.1.1.1.2 29 Oct 2008, 3:44 PM
It's broke DaveA. Problem here is Judo sticks to a tired old argument despite facts. For him and others like him IN THE MINORITY, it time for a better solution than heavy rail that don't cost government and taxpayers as much as this is while constricting city growth.
Comment 1.3 21 Oct 2008, 10:05 PM
100 % agree with the GPT Project proceeding and all Novocastrians giving their total support. We cannot afford to miss this opportunity to revitalise the city at a time when the economy is slowing. It is a time for all local politicicians to show leadership and make all attempts at uniting the residents rather than fuelling a divisive debate that revolves just around the inner city rail line.
Comment 1.4 23 Oct 2008, 3:41 PM
But do they actually have the money?
The Herald is reporting that they are $5 billion in debt, and their shares have been suspended from trading:
http://www.theherald.com.au/news/local/news/general/debt-could-end-gpts-city-plan/1340930.aspx
I really want to see this development go ahead, but I'd hate to see the rail line get ripped up, development start, then the developers pull out and leave the city in an even worse state.
Comment 1.4.1 26 Oct 2008, 8:30 PM
At this stage I would say it is almost irrelevant whether GPT have the money or not - if they don't they will sell their investment to someone else who will go ahead as there are approvals/designs etc. in place. If GPT does go ahead more money will follow their's. As I see it, Newcastle will change (it sure needs to) and let's support it and remove that rail!!!!
By the way, there have been a few comments on various forums about not removing heavy rail in city centres etc etc as it would be so disastrous and people wouldn't want to change from a train to a bus. I lived in London for 3 1/2 years and used a combination of above ground rail, buses and the underground. I never thought twice about having to change from one service type to another - just think of Waterloo, Charing Cross, Victoria Stations or Gare du Nord etc in Paris - trains come into an interchange and then you go onto a more appropriate localised/more direct service such as the buses, especially as buses can stop more frequently.
Comment 1.4.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 9:43 PM
It is that way because it has been for a very long time. I can imagine the furore if someone wanted to rip something up and make it more inconvenient. And they have a population far in excess of Newcastle and the Hunter Valley. Not a credible comparison by any means.
Comment 1.4.1.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 6:30 PM
But it wasn't once upon a time. As said before, not trying something new because we might upset a few people who have to change their habits is just not an effective argument against change. Newcastle CBD desparately needs to update and improve and you won't get it without change.
YOu don't need huge populations to have effective multiple and integrated transport systems. Surely the point is to make public transport safe, efficient and attractive (ie more stops, increased services etc) so that people get into the habit of using the system(s) rather than private transport.
Integrate the systems and get bums on seats rather than clogging up the city centre with out-dated and under utilised trains.
Comment 1.5 23 Oct 2008, 8:37 PM
Beware of strangers bearing gifts.
I live in Charlestown (The other GPT site). They used the same model to steamroller the development there as well. I fully support the development of Charlestown, but not at the expense of all the open space and community owned land. LMCC sold them our open space for $200 per square metre (I kid you not). Does this approach sound familiar?
1) Slide silently into town and purchase up strategic parcels of land.
2) Buddy up with the existing council and offer a few token members of the community a private sitting
3) If council and community support isnt more…
Comment 1.5.1 25 Oct 2008, 4:58 PM
There is no doubt that GPT will have a self interest, but none the less we have to decide if the development and the removal of the rail line are good for the community.
At the moment we have a tragic city centre and my belief is that GPT would revitalise this. The next step would be to ensure the closure would end up as a good use of the land from a community perspective.
My vision would be to see the area now dominated by a rail line looking more like Southport were there are parks man made beaches, are displays and cafe's set on a river(harbour for us).
If this was done we won't see the likes of the wind tunnel further down the road and we will have something we can be proud of.
As far as planning transport into the city a dedicated bus lane should achieve the same as a rail line without cutting the city in half.
Comment 1.5.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 9:45 AM
I am truly amazed!!! When will be clearly understood there will be NO parkland or green corridor. GPT are now showing the rail corridor as having been developed. Can I make that any clearer? You WILL get more of the wind tunnel type development, that is what GPT are all about.
Comment 1.5.1.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 5:50 PM
clutching at staws when your losing.
missinformation and scarmongering.
no i am amazed. we have opportunity to connect the private and gov. sector for the benifit of the city and were gunna say pass?
Comment 1.5.1.1.2 26 Oct 2008, 8:37 PM
Judo, the GPT "vision" is just that - a vision and not an approved, absolutely going to happen forgone conclusion. GPT have options on the Mall and not the railway line. What they are trying to do is to get people to think about possibilities. If, as similar to this forum, the people of Newcastle say "rip up the rail but keep it green" we won't have loads of buildings along the corridor. However, if the rail stays it will NEVER be green - far from it with the rubbish attracting fences, filthy tracks etc.
I think it is (sadly) amusing that many of the Save Our Railers or "SOR" include in their suggestions building over the railway lines - hardly a green corridor to be had in that!!!
Comment 1.5.1.1.2.1 26 Oct 2008, 9:46 PM
The people of Newcastle will not get a say on this. The developer will demand their own way as they are now doing. You seem to forget GPT's demand the line be removed. I am sure that is what I read in last Mondays Herald.....absolutely certain.
Comment 1.5.1.1.2.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 6:36 PM
What do you think is happening now Judo? Isn't this forum the people of Newcastle speaking? Why are you so pessimistic? The community response to this forum is fantastic and I am optimistic enough to think that the pollies, developers and local plannners are taking notice!
How do you think women got the vote - by waiting for it to happen or by speaking up? What about the Franklin Dam? The Daintree? You are fighting for the railway line via this forum and, ok, I am fighting against it, but we can both agree on the green corridor and make sure that the developers (including the approval authorities etc) get it that people want to keep the green corridors...
Comment 1.5.1.1.2.1.1.1 31 Oct 2008, 9:22 AM
Well true people are saying what they think or what they have lead to believe.....BUT WHO HAS THE MONEY more WHO is going to GAIN.
MONEY SPEAKS.
Comment 1.5.1.1.2.1.1.2 31 Oct 2008, 5:36 PM
Mrs Mop, so far none of the anti rail lobby have been able to say HOW a green corridor is going to save the GPT development. If it is hanging on for that reason alone then it's success is tenuous indeed. As I have said before, a green corridor provides no income and in itself is nowhere near enough to drag people away from their suburban shopping centres. To believe otherwise is to believe in fairies.
Comment 1.5.2 8 Nov 2008, 6:21 PM
The scary part is whether what GPT has come up with will actually thrive. See my other thread "Lipstick on a Pig" You could easily end up with the scenario where a lot of public money gets spent on the new public transport system, whatever it is, but the CBD is still rather depressing.
Comment 1.5.2.1 9 Nov 2008, 3:13 PM
I agree simply because the GPT proposal only offers more of what is already in the CBD. Are we saying the traders in the CBD are incompetent?? Of course not and any new shop in the GPT proposal will only operate as well as those there now. THe GPT proposal is certainly no magic panacea although the anti rail group seem to think it is.
Comment 1.6 24 Oct 2008, 8:10 AM
The following was submitted the Newcastle Herald's Letters to the Editor 20.10.08:
With the raising of the heavy rail issue again upon us once more I know that I am right is saying that this issue is now going to become a real loadstone for the state government. If it has any hope in saving its bacon come next election it will have to be very clear and decisive on where it wants to stand on the future of the critical revitalisation plans for the city's CBD.
The existing transport corridor (lets not look at it in any other way) is more…
Comment 1.6.1 24 Oct 2008, 12:01 PM
All candidates at the last state and council elections agreed they would support the retention of heavy rail into Newcastle. In being elected they were given a mandate to retain the heavy rail into Newcastle.
$500,000 was spent last year on the most recent of 70+ studies in the last decade, resulting in advice to government to retain the heavy rail services to Newcastle. These studies weren't done by the community, but by professional people hired by the government. Business and community were consulted extensively. Free thinker seems to be suggesting that the community should not be consulted. How many millions do we need to spend on studies before we get the answer the developers want?
Comment 1.6.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 10:39 PM
So what you are saying is there was no alternative to maintaining the heavy rail?
Its not just what is good for business activity in the city as we can see by the cross section of voting here.
A lot has changed in a decade Desideratum. Especially how run down into the ground our CBD has become. How many more useless dollars do you want to spend on ISOLATED 'studies' as the effects of bad infrastructure management and disconnection of Hunter Street to Honeysuckle and the harbour kills this place.
Comment 1.6.1.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 11:33 AM
You can't read well? I said more than 70 studies in ten years. The last one at $500,000 cost last year. Do you want a new study done every three months? The last study took about a year to complete. No wonder the state government is going broke. The CBD has become run down because all the money for it was spent on Honeysuckle. The 'disconnection' of Hunter Street to the waterfront is the enormous concrete edifices on the waterfront. 'Disconnection' is an emotive fabrication by the Herald to attempt to gain sympathy for their development ambitions, as they cannot identify any viable reasons why the heavy rail should be removed.
The only thing that changed in the last year is that GPT declared a week ago they can't complete their work at the Mall unless the rail is removed to 2 km away. Are they afraid of consumers coming to their new development?
Comment 1.6.1.2 26 Oct 2008, 8:42 PM
If "all candidates ... agreed they would support the retention of heavy rail" we, the voters of Newcastle didn't have a great deal of choice as there wasn't anyone to vote for that wasn't going to support it!!! I would also say that that doesn't give a manadate to Jodi to retain the rail, and I am really hoping that she has read and taken notice of this forum to rethink her position.
Comment 1.7 25 Oct 2008, 4:07 PM
This development can proceed without the removal of the line. When the plan for the mall was released there was nothing said by GPT about the need to remove it to make the development viable. GPT, the Hunter Development Coporation and the Hunter Business Chamber have decided to work together for their own mutual benefit to win the battle they lost in 2006. Despite the 'green corridor' propoganda the GPT plan shows that the line would be built upon from Wolfe St to Newcastle Station, with 8 buildings up to 6 stories high blocking views to the Foreshore.Instead of blaming the line for every ill accept the the developers are to blame for taking shoppers to places like Chaltestown Square- and which developer is that?
Comment 1.8 30 Oct 2008, 11:17 AM
Trams flow through a cityscape (frequently, with integrated ticketing) in Amsterdam, Istanbul, Berlin, Melbourne, Sydney and def others no doubt - lots of cities smarter than ours do this very well already.
Imagine you get off the train at Wickham, cross the platform to the tram which takes you in a LOOP:
down the old rail corridor to the city, left down Darby St, back along Parkway Ave (used to have a tram on it) and back to Wickham thru Hamilton.
For extra usability, there could be two loops - clockwise and anticlockwise.
Imagine the reduction in parking problems down the peninsula, the service to businesses in that area, the access to Honeysuckle, the green corridor, the bikes and prams and walking frames and surfboards all travelling on and off the tram.
All this to complement the one way road system etc put up by IdeasMan. Let's have it!
Comment 1.8.1 31 Oct 2008, 9:35 AM
That wont happen in our LIFETIME...
This is all about getting rid of the RAIL from the top of town.....PEOPLE still want the rail but the hassle is WHERE TO STOP IT. If you continue a light rail you still have rail tram or whatever going into the area they want for themself more like it.
WHY go to the expense of removal. spend the money somewhere ELSE within NEWCASTLE.
We are all screaming about the state of the place. CLEAN IT UP before making another mess
Vision is good but this is NEWCASTLE...I must say we cannot do everything at the moment due to FUNDING. Its big words. FUNDING and FITTING THE CRITERIA these days. I have found that out and I am sure plenty of other people have to. NO FREE LUNCH. TALK TALK TALK from alot of people in different places.
Comment 2 19 Oct 2008, 8:53 PM
The heavy rail line is the most significant barrier to any future options for potential growth of our inner city. There are several effective viable transport options available in contrast to the rail line. Whilst the line remains in it's current phase there are no viable options for opening up a city that is drowning in the murky waters of inaction, poor future vision and a real lack of major investment. The time is right for genuine leadership designed to allow this city full of wonderful potential to proceed to the next level.
Comment 2.1 19 Oct 2008, 9:10 PM
I'd be happy to see the barriers removed and a lighter form of rail introduced but I believe that until that happens the rail line should stay. If we let it go then we will never get anything. Rudd is about to start spending infrastructure funds. Why doesn't the city get together with GPT and bid for some money to upgrade the whole alignment and take light rail to a few other places too.
Comment 2.1.1 19 Oct 2008, 10:34 PM
Yes please - remove the rail and replace with a better alternative - light rail.
Although I believe the transport hub would be best situated on vacant land closer to Civic Station, any option will be a welcome government investment to the benefit of Newcastle.
Embrace change, and please act soon.
Comment 2.1.1.1 19 Oct 2008, 10:41 PM
Yes but the alternative rail based system needs to be in place first.
Comment 2.1.1.2 22 Oct 2008, 8:11 AM
I believe the only way to get the light rail option is to get rid of the heavy rail line. Once it is gone and more businesses move into the city and it becomes a more vibrant place support for the light rail option will increase and things will happen. One step at a time. Buses will do in the interim.
Comment 2.1.1.2.1 22 Oct 2008, 1:26 PM
I Agree with you.HOW DO YOU EAT A ELEPHANT???? One bite at a time! we need to start at the beginning the rest will follow
Comment 2.2 22 Oct 2008, 4:55 PM
I really do have to disagree. There is no possible blame for the current status of Newcastle CBD that can be apportioned to the rail line. If one looks objectively at the situation, there are appreciable barriers in the shape of buildings from Wickham to about 300 metres from Newcastle Station. They are impenetrable. There are many sites along Hunter Street that are prime redevelopment opportunities without removing the line. If the rail line is truncated at Wickham and development allowed along the corridor, we are still left with these eyesores. What are we to do with them. When one looks at the transport options, buses clearly do not cater for the bulk of commuters coming into Newcastle. Their routes are circuitous and time consuming and not conducive in their current format. There is urgent need to a review of routes and timings. So far GPT have only offered a newspaper article. Please don't fall for the hype. We need dtails of their proposal and so far these have not been forthcoming. We have only had scant information with a threat of withdrawal if the line remains. Not a very strong proposal in my mind.
Comment 2.2.1 23 Oct 2008, 5:57 AM
Judo, sit for a day at Bishopgate street gates and count how few people come into town on the train. Only then will you see the folly of the Save The Rail Trainspotters arguments, and question how the Newcastle Herald gives them Front Page stories.
Like the handful of vocal so-called heritage saviours that have inhibited the growth and prosperity of the peninsular, the Trainspotters are happy to continue to support the death of the city.
Comment 2.2.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 12:16 PM
Reformer several expert studies have been done involving sitting all day at the Hannel St Gates. They have shown the average delay at the gates is far less than crossing Hunter St either way. The main delay is usually the buses opposite the Store.
The Herald beatup to try to appeal to uninformed people's emotions is to be expected of the Herald, because they can't produce any factual information to support their plan to remove the rail.....
If your travelling accross the gates say to Charlestown just note how long you spend at traffic lights on your trip and compare that to the rail delay.
It was interesting to see that when there was a rail strike the congestion was much more serious.
Comment 2.2.1.2 24 Oct 2008, 5:40 PM
I work in town and have a close connection with the rail so am in a pefect position to honestly see how many people utilise the line. Do you sit there all day? Far more than credit it given for. The CBD has died for reasons other than the rail. The line has existed for over 150 years and has Hunter Street been dead for that long? I think not. The CBD has declined because of the growth of suburban shopping centres and their popularity. Also because of the closure of Royal Newcastle Hospital, Irene Hall Nurses Home and the more…
Comment 2.2.1.2.1 30 Oct 2008, 10:14 AM
You work on the railway... People have a look at "why is Newcastle dead topic" my piont will be proven !
Comment 2.2.1.2.1.1 11 Nov 2008, 6:47 PM
Richard. Once again you make comments that make no sense. How can my working for the railway impact on or influence what I have said as to the reasons why the CBD has died? The reasons are there for all to see. And I do not understand how "my point will be proven". What are you trying to say in your inimitable style? You have not proven anything as usual!!
Comment 2.2.1.2.1.2 11 Nov 2008, 8:02 PM
Richard.
Could you please tell us what the point is that is now "proven". Whether one works on the railway or indeed anywhere else is irrelevant to their voicing an opinion. What is your occupation?? Does it confer any greater insight into the problems facing the CBD?? You have made some incredible comments on your posts.
You ask why we need "30,000 tonne trains coming into Newcastle"? A train of this length would cover a distance of 4.5 kilometres and is 3 times heavier than the heaviest coal train in the Hunter Valley. A gross exaggeration!!
You heap scorn and derision on more…
Comment 2.2.1.2.1.3 12 Nov 2008, 3:41 PM
One other point which I forgot to put in my post just below is that all of you who live in the suburbs should be aware that Richard Walters has made the statement in response to a question that those who live in the Newcastle CBD have a higher intelligence than those who live elswhere. I have continually defended the heavy rail and in the process incurred the wrath of Richard by being subjected to insulting names, a refusal to answer questions. He also makes comments that are very cryptic and make no sense whatsoever.
Comment 3 21 Oct 2008, 4:27 PM
The rail line has always been a poor image of the CDB. It is ugly, smelly and attracts some unwanted class of people. Before I moved to Newcastle I regularly caught the train into the CBD and was surprised at how empty the trains were. Rip it out and get rid of it. I'm sure we would all prefer to see lushious green park land and other development that would open the CBD up to the foreshore. Besides in the long term it would probably be more cost effective not to have the rail service than have a service that rarely gets used.
Comment 3.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:05 PM
Enforcer. I did not know trains smelled. And as for "some unwanted class of people". How elitist of you. It is Hunter Street that is ugly and smelly. How is "luscious green park" going to attract customers into Newcastle?? It is Hunter Street that needs development. I walked along there today and was so disheartened by the number of vacant shops, in fact right down to the west end. The CBD has died for several reasons, not withstanding Council neglect, neglect on the part of government and neglect on the part of the Business Chamber. It seems everyone has just sat back and relied on someone else to get things going or keep them going. Remember, we only get out what we put in. I am sure many of those who advocate the lifting of the rail line do not go into Newcastle if indeed they ever have, do not travel by train and probably never will. Do you shop in Newcastle CBD. What ar you doing as your bit to resurrect Newcastle CBD.
Comment 4 21 Oct 2008, 5:38 PM
As a 17 year old girl i see the rail line as unattractive and a detraction from the potential evident in Newcastle's CBD. The current state of "in town" is just embarrassing, and i honstly do not know anyone who enjoys venturing in there.
Comment 4.1 31 Oct 2008, 5:51 PM
Good on you Sophie. You are wise beyond your years
Comment 5 22 Oct 2008, 7:44 AM
Over the past 21 years I've seen the foreshore develop and improve from an eyesore to a great place to work, live, walk, cycle, fish, eat and simply enjoy the beautiful harbor that Newcastle has.What hasn't changed is the rail corridor, the last eyesore in the puzzle that is holding this city's development back. I also sit at the crossings counting passengers on the trains at peak times... they are easy to count.When I took the train to Sydney last week and got off at Central Station, I wasn't at Sydney harbor? Why do we continue to fight this change, rail was important when the foreshore was a commercial hub for trade, now that's changed. A container terminal on the old BHP site, the redevelopment of the city core... lets get on with it.
Comment 5.1 22 Oct 2008, 8:17 AM
If you had gotten of the train at Ciruclar Quay you would have been at the harbour.
Comment 5.1.1 23 Oct 2008, 6:01 AM
not without changing from one train to another. So you support the idea that it is ok to change form one train to another during a jouney?
Comment 5.1.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 10:20 AM
Sydneys rail system is totally different to Newcastle, that is obvious and no comparison can be drawn between the two.
Comment 5.1.1.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 9:00 PM
So why do people keep on about Newcastle having to have the same as such and such a place? Why aren't we developing something that is useful for us? Rather than just retaining the status quo for a handful of people.
Comment 5.1.1.1.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 9:49 PM
Mrs Mop, you still aren't saying who will pay. And as for a handful of people, do you use the rail to find out how many actually use it?
Comment 5.1.1.1.1.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 6:43 PM
Judo, we are paying either way and will continue to do so. Public transport isn't profit making, and will probably never be so either and I don't think it should be seen that way, but it should be as cost effective and as well utilised as possible by as wide a stretch of the population as possible over the biggest geographical area.
I do use public transport - the free bus on a regular basis, and the train about 3 times in the last 3 years and that was out to Maitland from Hamilton.
I also work on the railway line near Newcastle Station and walk past it on the way to/from work at "peak commuter" times and have never seen that many people either on the trains, waiting for one or getting off one.
I consider myself reasonably well qualified to comment.
Comment 5.1.1.1.1.1.2 30 Oct 2008, 10:11 AM
judo... who pays for it now ?? US !! You have to ask more than who is going to pay for it & you wonder why you get so many thumbs down
Comment 5.2 24 Oct 2008, 12:19 PM
Perhaps the Sydney people would like to remove their circle heavy rail line from Circular Quay?
Comment 5.2.1 27 Oct 2008, 8:15 PM
Perhaps the people of Newcastle would like to see their heavy rail go underground like it is in Sydney - and we know how not very likely that is.
Comment 5.2.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 3:44 PM
And what do we do with the current fleet of diesel trains. Not good underground or do those who propose we go underground not know we have them.
Comment 6 22 Oct 2008, 8:38 AM
The Developers have always known the Rail line was there into Newcastle and so; should have built around if necessary.
Plus; there has been a vast reduction in Train movements since the carriage Sheds and Honeysuchle have gone.
This is similar to the cutting of the Rail line to both Belmont & Toronto; both short sighted.
Unless there is adequate Parking & Rail Transport into Newcastle itself; why develope; when few will visit or be able to?
Comment 6.1 22 Oct 2008, 10:53 AM
I agree. There are ample opportunities for development in Newcastle CBD. Hunter Street is full of them with the empty and derelict shops there. The retention of the rail line is imperative as a means of bringing commuters into the city in a safe, clean and environmentally friendly way. The Newcastle CBD has died for a number of reasons, none involving the rail line. Look at the impact the closure of the hospital, the ability to pay accounts at the Post Office or electronically and the closure of the nurses quarters has had. What has had a major impact is the development of regional shopping centres. This has had a massive effect on Newcastle CBD. We will see and indeed are seeing now the short sightedness of the closure of the Belmont and Toronto branch lines. The same can be said for the lifting of the tram lines all those years ago.
Save the rail and save Newcastle CBD.
Comment 6.1.1 22 Oct 2008, 4:14 PM
'save the rail'? People talk about it like it is an endangered species or something....
I work in retail and if someone wanted to spend $650m at my store i would give them my first, second and third born children! 2km of rail in exchange for something we can all be proud of is a small price to pay.
Wow, it is not only our councellors that like to squabble....
Comment 6.1.1.1 22 Oct 2008, 4:23 PM
Well put. It seems such a simple concept - 2km of rail or complete revitalisation of our CBD? Save our CBD more like it!
I own a business here in the CBD and plan on leaving soon because of the state of the city and its lack of security. Whether or not I re-open again will depend on the long overdue development, and unfortunately I am not the only one. I believe if this plan goes ahead it will not only provide more jobs for Novocastrians, but also a desire for more local business to open and create a thriving community of mixed use. Just what Newcastle deserves.
Comment 6.1.1.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:12 PM
Whoa there. GPT do not intend revitalising the whole of the Newcastle CBD. Where did you get that from? They are only looking at their very small square, don't forget that. Have you somehow seen a plan for the revitalisation of the whole of the CBD?? The whole of Hunter Street is a disgrace, not just the east end. Take a good look and tell me how the rail line affects so much of Hunter Street.
Comment 6.1.1.1.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 12:47 PM
I understand that GPT aren't going to revitalise the whole CBD, but they do intend to kickstart something that would inevitabley have a flow on effect to other small businesses in the surrounding area and therefore create more jobs. It's clear, well, to most people responding on this forum, that the rail is blocking off the foreshore to the CBD. As previously stated for example, that when the maritime festival and darby street fair were on that all areas in town were thriving, but not the east end of Hunter, King and surrounding streets. The majority of businesses who will be directly affected by the development and the removal of the rail line to Wickham are in support of these changes that will help Newcastle's delapitated city centre.
Comment 6.1.2 23 Oct 2008, 9:09 AM
Save our rail wants to put in extra crossings as their solution. All this will do is make it easier to get away from the cobweb encrusted ghostown of hunter st onto the vibrant, go ahead area of the habour.
Comment 6.1.2.1 25 Oct 2008, 10:25 AM
You don't say how the harbour is going to made into a "vibrant, go ahead" area. Have a good look at the recent development in Honeysuckle. Do we want more of these ugly, cold, featureless monstrosities. That is what you will get if developers have their way. I would like to hear your thoughts on how all of Hunter Street is to be revitalised and more importantly, who pays.
Comment 6.1.2.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 11:38 AM
If you cared to read through the various observations and suggestions made by myself and many others thoughout the discussion, instesd of looking at everything in such a negative light, you would see the answers to all your questions. We have a developer willing to put a large amount of capital, and a federal gov flush with funds looking as ways of spending it on infrustrucure now. not in 12 months time. I would hope we would be striving to get as much as we can from both parties for the betterment of the city's future rather than leave it to stagnat.
with regared to the habour, if you don't think it is a vibrant go ahead area already, there is something wrong.
Comment 6.1.2.1.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 2:54 PM
The Foreshore currently has The Brewery and Blue Water Pizza, hardly makes it vibrant and alive with development. The largest portion of The Foreshore is east of Watt Street. And yes, I have read yours and others comments but still I we get is pie in the sky ideas. No money, no concrete proposals, just hope that other developers will come along. I am most definitely not a negative person but I am not so silly as to blindly believe what a developer says after changing their mind a couple of times. Do you not read the papers and listen to the news. A major complaint of people is the treatment of councils and ordinary people at the hands of developers. An example is the current furore over the Rose Group plans for Catherine Hill Bay. I ask you this. Why has Hunter Street died over the last 20 years? And don't tell me because of the rail line. That argument flies in the face of the facts. If you want to know why Newcastle CBD has died, look at the topic "Why Newcastle CBD has died" There you will find the answers.
Comment 6.1.2.1.1.1.1 2 Nov 2008, 3:18 PM
Wrong again, Customs house & Scratchleys then we go down to the Honeysuckle & you will find a few businesses down there next to the Crown plaza..
Comment 6.1.2.1.2 26 Oct 2008, 9:12 PM
I think the "ugly, cold, featureless monstrosities" (oh and open Harbour Square, Foreshore Park, the square alongside one of the Lee Wharf buildings...) are a huge improvement on nasty rail lines, rotting wharves and contaminated land that was previously the foreshore area. Would you prefer to go back to the "good old days" before the foreshore was cleaned up? If it hadn't been, we wouldn't have the Maritime Festival (or the new Maritime Centre), Live Sites etc which are wonderful and bring in people to make it a "vibrant go ahead area" on top of ordinary weekends (like today).
Who has paid for most of it? Big bad developers and the people who now live in the apartments and enjoy the foreshore through their purchase of the apartments. Are there any SOR people living in the Honeysuckle apartments? Or is that not allowed?
Oh yes, I'd better mention the rail line - just imagine, we could keep it as a reminder of those good old days when we couldn't stroll along the foreshore at all...
Comment 6.1.2.2 25 Oct 2008, 11:50 AM
Sorry Dalkiz I thought I heard some uninformed people say that the rail services were a barrier to the waterfront. To respond to an inane statement one needs to make an equally inane and opposite response.
If there was any genuine concern about the rail blocking people's access to the waterfront, the crossings that have been removed over the years would be replaced immediately.
Comment 6.1.2.3 29 Oct 2008, 2:05 PM
if you are referring to the development at honeysuckle as vibrant perhaps you should get out more. while the area may bulge with public servants and business people during their 2 hour lunch break, the rest of the town shuns the area as an architectural crime against humanity. A 'vibrant, go ahead' scene normally implies a mix of intelligent, progressive and cultured people with diverse and interesting ideas, not fat, ugly and greedy people discussing how to milk everything they can.
Comment 6.1.2.3.1 29 Oct 2008, 6:51 PM
My goodness! You obviously have never enjoyed a stroll along the foreshore with the other thousands of people for the Maritime Festival, Australia Day and just about any decent weather Sunday.
I think you are also being quite offensive about the people that live and work in the area - not every skinny person is cultured (or worth knowing) and not everyone who wants to develop an area is greedy and just out to milk everything.
You also forget what a nasty mess was there previously and could still have been there if the greedy developers didn't have the vision to spend their money. No redevelopment would have occurred at all without a commercial return and very few people would wander along the foreshore if it was all parkland (if you could get the money to clean up the mess, landscape and maintain it).
Quite a few people have a similar attitude about Honeysuckle - please realise that, whether you like the architecture or not, it is an improvement on the past and it is here to stay.
Comment 6.2 23 Oct 2008, 2:57 PM
Yes you are right. Developers have always known that the rail line was there. That's why they haven't been forthcoming with development which is obvious from the state of our decaying city. So let's get rid of it and allow the revitalisation of the city to begin.
Also, if there has been such a vast reduction in the number of train movements, then why do we need to keep the heavy rail line?
Comment 6.2.1 25 Oct 2008, 10:27 AM
So you are saying the rail line has been the sole reason developers have not come into Newcastle. I have never heard such rot in all my life. Open your eyes and look at the real reasons why Newcastle CBD has died. The anti rail lobby seem to be in denial about that.
Comment 6.2.2 25 Oct 2008, 11:58 AM
Sorry Joe, the fabrication that rail patronage has decreased is as false as the yarn that the rail has caused the CBD to decline.
City Rail Statistics reported by the Herald tell us that passenger numbers have steadilly increased for many years as petrol prices and road congestion increases.
Comment 6.3 29 Oct 2008, 6:27 PM
So true about the Belmont line. Just think of all that traffic they wasnt clogging up Charlestown before the Link road went in. Thats another thing even that road was years.
Could of saved alot of money.
One thing that came out of the Belmont line going was the cycle way and that maybe the only good thing.
Comment 7 22 Oct 2008, 11:51 AM
The heavy rail line is poorly patronised beyond Hamilton so terminating it at Wickham to create a transport interchange with ample commuter parking makes good sense as does creating a pedestrian & cyclist friendly green belt where the rail line from Wickham to Newcastle is removed.
The iconic Newcastle railway Station should be preserved for a specialist community use.
The Newcastle CBD is in a pathetic state & desperately in need of the rejuvenation of retail & services proposed by GPT to provide for the apartment dwellers who are flocking into the city.
This opportunity should not be jeopardised so please note what the community says.
Comment 7.1 22 Oct 2008, 11:58 AM
What statistics or research do you base the poor patronage? I stand every morning and evening as the trains are PACKED!
Comment 7.1.1 22 Oct 2008, 1:54 PM
I live just near Newcastle station and use the service often. At times I feel the serive is just there for my personal use. It really does'nt seem to pick up till Broadmeadow. What is your personal experience with Newcastle station?
Comment 7.1.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 11:59 AM
Yet we have evidence to prove otherwise.
Comment 7.1.1.1.1 2 Nov 2008, 3:24 PM
NFlyer...That evidence is one video of many trains with less than 50 people getting off at Newcastle station each time...
Where's the Videos of peak hour ?? You have been saying this is there busy period at peak hour... Where's that video ??? Bit hard to find or something ??
Comment 7.1.1.1.1.1 2 Nov 2008, 3:45 PM
Where did I say anything about "there busy period at peak hour"?
Comment 7.1.1.1.1.1.1 3 Nov 2008, 2:05 AM
Well this is what this is about, you come up with footage of Newcastle Train station with less than 50 people on each picture of different trains... Why not get a video of peak hour at Newcastle station & show us how many people use the train at that time, That would help your cause not mine, because this is what this is all about, people using the Train from Newcastle station ! until you show us some real hard evidence about the attendance at peak hour at Newcastle station your footage means nothing
Comment 7.1.1.1.1.1.2 3 Nov 2008, 2:05 AM
Removed by moderator. Comment was deemed offensive, inappropriate or spam.
Comment 7.1.1.2 31 Oct 2008, 9:42 AM
WELL robynrg
Are you reading the paper when it pulls into Hamilton.
You are very lucky then to have your own train for personal use, but as some people have stated you will loose that little item if it goes ahead.
Your statement*At times I feel the serive is just there for my personal use.
Comment 7.1.1.2.1 31 Oct 2008, 6:11 PM
Robyn, perhaps you are a little off the track (no pun intended) if you think people should loiter around Newcastle Station, just to give you an idea how busy it is. No, people alight from the train and go to where they want to go, the same as bus passengers do.
Comment 7.1.2 25 Oct 2008, 12:02 PM
It appears obvious that the people who say the rail services are underutilised have never travelled by train, certainly in peak services.
Comment 7.2 23 Oct 2008, 5:41 PM
Statistics from the Lower Hunter Transport Working Group report (from 2003) show that almost 3000 people used Newcastle station each day at that time. Across the entire day, there was an average of 42 people per train on the Hamilton-to-Newcastle segment. During peak times, up to 100 people used trains on this segment.
This is quite a high utilisation for the last segment of the rail line, especially considering that the seating capacities of the 620 and 720 railcars that were still used at that point were 48 and 54 respectively.
These statistics were reported by the Lower Hunter Transport Working Group, which is not known for being pro-rail.
Patronage has increased since then across the CityRail network, so I would expect the numbers to have increased for this portion of the line as well.
Comment 7.2.1 23 Oct 2008, 6:37 PM
How can you give raw statistics a thumbs-down?
The statistics are straight from the Lower Hunter Transport Working Group Report 2.
The statistic don't even necessarily support the pro-heavy-rail argument. They just show that if something replaces the rail, then it will have to cope with 3000 patrons a day going to Newcastle station (and 7200 for the whole Hamilton-to-Newcastle segment).
Comment 7.2.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 9:29 AM
Exactly Jim. I think the majority here are convinced it can be done more effectively than the current means.
Comment 7.3 30 Oct 2008, 6:44 PM
i get the train from hamilton to newcastle every other day. every time i catch it there are several people getting on with me. It is a very well used section of line.
on the other hand i wouldn't vouch for how many of these people have a ticket as there is very rarely any staff to check them and no machine on that side of the station - so perhaps this skews the stats!?
Comment 7.3.1 30 Oct 2008, 8:11 PM
Rail staff are not permitted to check tickets at the barrier, in fact they have not done it for years. This would be changed by a new direction from government. There is huge scope for an increase in revenue simply by ensuring everyone has a valid ticket. It happens in other staes, why not here.
Comment 7.4 3 Nov 2008, 2:10 AM
I agree. The rail line should finish at Hamilton.
Two reasons. First, Hamilton is an interesting destination in itself. Second, you need a bit of room for trains to maneuver and there isn't much room near Whickham.
Comment 8 22 Oct 2008, 12:58 PM
I live in walking distance to Newcastle rail station, I frequently use the service to Sydney,maitland and hamilton. I find it useful to my needs However i am only the minority . I can not expect a city to stand still of progress beacuse I use the service 2 to 3 times a week ...yes,IT NEEDS TO GO no doubt however there has to be a replacement of some kind. My view is we need a light rail into the city of Newcastle. This light rail needs to accommodate Nelson bay, the Uni and most importantly the HOSPITALS! I feel this should be funded by revenue from our Stud farms, wine industry, coal industry( this would have to mean serious$$$$$$$) etc etc. Isn't it about time we as Novocastrians get to see where this money is actually going????Accross the road from the railway station would have to be the Largest uranul in Australia....not a nice scene nor smell for anyone visiting Newcastle! lets stop being refered to as "MT Durrit upon sea".
Comment 8.1 25 Oct 2008, 8:07 PM
I totally agree with the light rail option- it's used in many successful cities in the world. I have just returned from San Francisco, and the "Trolley Cars" are a tourist attraction. It just makes sense, as it doesn't stop traffic, yet still allows for alternate public transport options besides buses and ferries.
Comment 8.1.1 31 Oct 2008, 7:49 PM
They dont want any RAIL of any Kind .
admin Comment 9 Moderator 22 Oct 2008, 2:30 PM
Comment Emailed to Administrator
By Essential Rail
SUPPORTING NEWCASTLE RAIL TO STAY...
I am a long time user and supporter of the rail into Newcastle Station.
Everyone is entitled to a say, but it is sad to listen to some of the drivel by many 'out of towners', most who rarely use the rail, and their selfish opinions have no concern or respect whatsoever for those who use this important rail service as their preferred means of transport for whatever reason, whether for school, work, the unliscenced, the elderly, or for pleasure, convenience etc., as well as knowing surfboards are not allowed more…
Comment 9.1 22 Oct 2008, 4:29 PM
I'm also a frequent passenger of the Newcastle rail commencing from Newcastle station.....We must travel on different days as I haven't yet had the pleasure of meeting my fellow traveller! As a frequent travaller I find this mode of transport dirty,uncomfortable and quite often frightening. Albeit for my purpose it is extremely convenient so I put up with it ,(mobile close by set on quick dial to Newcastle police station). I believe if you are a "OUT OF TOWNER" you have every democratic right to make comment , this is not only a transport issue as you pointed out. more…
Comment 9.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 3:01 PM
Robyn, really get a grip on reality. Who makes the trains dirty? Railcorp? And as for being frightened and ready for a "speed dial" to Newcastle Police Station. Perhaps you should not come outside at all if society frightens you so much. We see far more cases of road rage in the media than assaults on trains. In fact I cannot recall the last time it received any coverage and I can assure you The Herald would not miss reporting that. What would makes passengers on light rail place their rubbish in a bin yet not do it on heavy rail. Answers please.
Comment 9.1.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 6:35 PM
Some people are pigs and hold NO RESPECT .Just take a look at the signs. NO FEET ON SE$ATS.. How many get told to take their feet off the seats.
Maybe soon our Train will become like the animals.
Comment 9.1.1.1.1 3 Nov 2008, 11:44 AM
once again off the topic, you should catch a bus !! Then you dont have to look at it !!
Comment 9.1.1.2 8 Nov 2008, 6:38 PM
If they designed planes like RailCorp designs trains, everyone would refer to them as cattle class. They are needlessly noisy, high in vibration. Do not accelerate or brake smoothly. And visually they are a disaster. And the seats suck.
Why? Because no one cares. And Rail Corp lacks the talent or vision. Its the same industrial design thinking that works well on coal trains.
Plus we have a century out of date signaling system that forces such a huge separation between trains that we end up responding by building, big, heavy, ugly, inefficient 8 car double decker trains, that look *especially* lonesome when they end up parked at Newcastle Station.
Lets face it, its the attitude that public transport has to look and feel and smell crappy, that means that the only people who use it are the people who *have* to use it. (Like me for instance, I don't have enough sight to drive.) Everyone else who has a car or can borrow one, will drive.
If we're going to have a new light rail for Newcastle, let it be simple, efficient and people friendly. And please, try to get someone else besides RailCorp to design it :)
Comment 9.1.2 11 Nov 2008, 6:50 PM
Robyn. Why and how would travelling on light rail be any safer and cleaner than heavy rail?? As for Newcastle being a swinging seat, it was held by an independent once and still nothing happened.
Comment 9.2 23 Oct 2008, 6:13 AM
Change from a train to bus at Central (Broadmeadow) and get a Rapid Transit Bus to town or elsewhere. If the NSW Govt didn't heavily subsidise heavy Rail (and ignore the unsustainable environmental cost) of the Maitland to Newcastle route, you would think twice. Try $60 each way as the real cost of your journey, based o dividing true cost by passenger numbers.
Ask yourself - why hasn't any official (or Jodi) stumped up with the REAL cost of heavy rail on this page?
Comment 9.2.1 25 Oct 2008, 3:03 PM
And your figure of $60, where did you get that from or did you make it up?
Comment 9.3 23 Oct 2008, 3:59 PM
I actually think we should pay extra attention to the opinions from the "out of towners". These are the people with the most unbiased view of our city. Also, aren't the current "out of towners" the people we are trying to attract back to the city? How can we rebuild a vibrant atmosphere without attracting new people?
If such people believe that Newcastle would be better off without the rail line, they obviously don't see its removal being a hinderance to them travelling here.
You ask what the use of a useless, trainless corridor is to Newcastle. I'd say more useful and more…
Comment 10 22 Oct 2008, 3:43 PM
We need to ask the question, who are the users of the current rail into Newcastle?? the elderly??kids and family going to the beach??? workers in the city??? or people accessing the legal precint or foreshore??
All these people need to walk to their destination after getting off the train.
Why not get off the train at a Wickham interchange, and have an efficient FREE bus service that loops the city, via the foreshore to the beach, the law courts, and the mall. Surely this would be convenient for all, especially the elderly.
Of course buses would need to allow surfboards to be taken on board as they are in the trains.
Other ideas for light rail etc have merit, as does 'burying the rail' in a subway, but we must be realistic about the costs involved and the lack of financial support of this region by the Government.
If the choice is between a decrepit underused rail and new development and jobs for the city, it is an easy choice... move ahead Newcastle!!
Comment 10.1 23 Oct 2008, 6:15 AM
There is no FREE bus. Call it Taxpayer Funded.
Comment 10.1.1 23 Oct 2008, 9:34 AM
you know what she means - Free for user. This is a great initiative.
Comment 10.2 25 Oct 2008, 2:21 PM
Where would the surfboards go on said bus?
Comment 10.2.1 29 Oct 2008, 3:49 PM
In hand. Surfers as a % of passengers is minor though.
Comment 10.2.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 10:15 PM
snail, check out Newcastle Station on any day during summer, particularly weekends when kids are off school.
Comment 10.2.1.2 8 Nov 2008, 6:39 PM
Which is bleedin obvious because most serious surfers have wheels or mates with wheels..
Comment 10.2.2 2 Nov 2008, 4:13 PM
As a surfer in newcastle as a young bloke living nowhere near a train sttaion I seemed to be able to get my surfboard on a bus with no problems. generaly sat next to it or if there was a few of us one seat was used to store them all. sadly the bus only went into newcastle and we would have to walk around to bar beach/merwether. trips out to rehead etc were too difficult as there was few bus's.
thats why i support a better system and the removal of the rail line
Comment 11 22 Oct 2008, 4:54 PM
I concede reluctantly that the heavy rail line should be removed but the two historic railway stations should preserved. It is hoped that this won't be later regretted. Alan Clayton.
Comment 11.1 29 Oct 2008, 6:40 PM
I actually stated in an earlier statement what you have said...WE well most of us all love to have a RIDE in the STEAM train.
LEAVE THE TRACK AND TRAIN
Comment 12 22 Oct 2008, 9:03 PM
I think Newcastle could do something really unique and "green" - ditch the railway at Wickham (west) and in its place put bike paths in for riders. For those that don't have a bike, a hire system could be run by council and for those not wanting to ride themselves a rickshaw type bike or horse drawn caleche could be hired with rider/driver. A new clean green 21st century solution that adds something unique to our town. Offers a healthy alternative that would be unique.
We can't loose $650M in this current economic climate.
The Hunter is always the poor cousin to Sydney, yet with coal mining royalties last year alone topping $1B why does Newcastle always have to go cap in hand for everything.
We lost the Nobby's development opportunity, lets not let another great opportunity slip by. We grab this redovelopment with both hand and lets look forward not backward to past century development and "brown" infrastructure. Lets go Newcastle, choose this for our town and our future! Jx.
Comment 12.1 23 Oct 2008, 5:50 PM
Dear jcard,
Not everyone can ride a bike, and as for a hire system for bikes or rickshaws etc, this is unrealistic. Not every person who enters the CBD has the time to meander into town - some people have to get work, or have appointments etc, and therefore need to travel quickly. As well, some people have health issues that would deny them access to this form of transport. (Also, imagine how many bikes/rickshaws you would need to cover the numbers of people who do come into town - assuming for the moment that they all could use your system. more…
Comment 12.2 24 Oct 2008, 7:56 AM
Lyon, France is a river city with hills and flat sections where recently the civic leaders introduced a city owned and operated bicycle ride and park system. About 5,000 bicycles form the basis of a system where ratepayer card-holders can arrive at a storage point, swipe their card, collect a bicycle then ride it to where they want to go, then restow it for further use by the next person. This kind of innovative system could be incorporated at strategic points from the western end of Hunter Street to Nobby's and Newcastle beaches, utilising a landscaped pedestrian / bicycle pathway along the transport corridor left after removing the heavy rail line. Access paths would branch out to provide links to the foreshore, CBD destinations, etc. reducing co-use traffic issues on Hunter Street and other carriageways.
This concept would turn the antequated Newcastle heavy rail problem into a modern solution for urban movements, a model for other Australian cities to follow. Its time we became urban transport solution leaders and not dwell on the past.
Comment 12.2.1 24 Oct 2008, 11:44 AM
Free Thinker - This is a great vision and also achievable. Newcastle city and surrounds (Cooks Hill, Wickham, Hamilton) suit cycling with a little help with improving cycleways. To make it even better, we need to encourage more people to live in the city and Wickham. Removal of the railway line will stimulate development in that area. 15,000 more city residents will save a lot of car trips.
Comment 12.3 26 Oct 2008, 6:39 PM
If GPT still have $650M available to them by the time this talkfest ends then it will be a small miracle.
Your point about the State government is more relevant, why doesn't the State government repay the Hunter, it is because the electorate will not vote anything other than ALP and hence why should they care if the local electorate do not stand up for themselves.
Comment 13 23 Oct 2008, 7:30 AM
Wake up Newcastle....this has been an "out",using the rail line as an excuse to opt out......look for yourselves....http://www.afr.com/home/viewer.aspx?EDP://20081023000030453172§ion=home&title=Casualty+list%3a+GPT+for+surgery%2c+Babcock+for+sale
Comment 13.1 23 Oct 2008, 10:08 AM
Well then, lets not allow the rail line to be an excuse for an out, its that simple . surely !!
Comment 13.2 26 Oct 2008, 6:40 PM
At last someone who actually has done some research on the State of the GPT company, the rail line is being used to force the State government to hand over cash.
Comment 14 23 Oct 2008, 1:18 PM
Jodi,
I don't recall being asked last time about keeping the heavy rail line. I think you are going to find this time that the silent majority are opposed to the heavy rail barrier and its ugly and unpopular division of the CBD and foreshore (the results I have seen so far in this forum would seem fairly conclusive). I also believe that a vocal minority were partly responsible for the last decision to keep the rail although I would also assume that there were other political motives (such as cost) at work. Heavy rail is not required in the CBD, more…
Comment 14.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:21 PM
I am constantly amazed at the references to the Foreshore. We have not had it for that long and prior to that Newcastle CBD thrived. And the rail infrastructure was far more extensive. Where do you think the Foreshore came from? Look at the problem without the meotion and you will see the problems of the Newcastle CBD exist for reasons other than the rail line. There are ample opportunities for crossing the line, after all they are not far apart. Yes, walking straight across would be easier but are we that lazy?
Comment 14.2 25 Oct 2008, 2:24 PM
Good thing Jodi is also the Minister for the Hunter and not just Newcastle
Comment 15 23 Oct 2008, 2:12 PM
Hi there I live right in the middle of the city. I have been here for over three years now and although I love living here I am saddened every day I walk out my front door to see the rapidly decaying environment in my city.
I see litter, broken windows, graffiti, urine and faeces in corners of buildings that go unloved. I have witnessed arsonist attacks on empty buildings and see our Emergency Services struggle with issues that simply do not need to happen in neglected buildings.
When I lived in the 'burbs' out Maitland way, I caught the train more…
Comment 15.1 23 Oct 2008, 4:57 PM
Smithy..... PLEASE Submit your letter to the Herald. This needs to be read by all!!!!!! WELL SAID!
Comment 15.2 23 Oct 2008, 6:08 PM
Dear smithy,
The state of the streets/shops/buildings has nothing to do with the rail line - that is a behavioural problem that needs better policing. As well, the state of the many dilapidated buildings should not be blamed on public transport or on the town. Rather, their state is the responsibility of the owners. Nobody wants to rent a property if it has not been maintained; while damage to a property is claimable, if the property is insured.
Comment 15.2.1 24 Oct 2008, 9:53 AM
Sorry Diane, but my hairdresser on King street can no longer claim insurance for damage to his premises. He has $10,000 worth of scratch grafitti on his plate glass windows and won't claim on his insurance anymore becuase if he does he can't get any insurance. Have you every seen the windows of The Hobby Shop..same situation, so don't blame the owners for the downfall.
Comment 15.2.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:24 PM
But how is the rail line to blame?? You have lost me there and Diane is correct. We have enormous social problems in the inner city area. Are these the fail of rail too??
Comment 15.2.1.2 25 Oct 2008, 12:26 PM
What has that got to with blaming a rail line, or any public transport for that matter?
Comment 15.2.1.3 25 Oct 2008, 3:59 PM
Dear Newie Crow,
First, please review my response to your accusations at part one of this forum.
Second, I am not 'blaming' the shop owners for the presence of graffiti, as you assert. Again, you deliberately want to misrepresent me. Rather, I am saying that graffiti is a law and order issue, and is not, as you seem to be arguing, somehow the result of having a public transport system.
Comment 15.2.1.3.1 25 Oct 2008, 7:06 PM
Diane, you misinterpret me. I agree that the current graffiti problems have nothing to do with the railway line. However, you stated that the state of shops are the responsibilty of the owners, and and damage was able to be claimed on insurance. All I was doing was pointing out that businesses have problems claiming on insurance. You said that "their state is the responsibility of the owners. Nobody wants to rent a property if it has not been maintained; while damage to a property is claimable, if the property is insured" and I just wanted to show that they have their hands tied too. You bought this issue into the debate.
Comment 15.2.1.3.1.1 26 Oct 2008, 7:13 PM
Dear Newie Crow,
I appreciate you acknowledging that the state of the streets (e.g. graffiti and the evidence of other anti-social behaviour - and the actual focus of my response to Smithy, see above) has nothing to do with the railway line. And in this new spirit of cooperation and bipartisanship that I sense from your contribution, I refer you to the Newcastle Herald report in yesterday's paper. The Herald reports that GPT want the govt (taxpayer) to spend $160 million dollars. Yet importantly, the paper notes, that missing from the GPT proposal is any '...analysis of public transport patronage in Newcastle, the effect a Wickham interchange would have on travel times, and how bus services would be made more efficient.'
So GPT want the taxpayer to spend all this money on something we already have. And they can't even guarantee that having spent this money, transport will meet the needs of the community as it currently exists, not to mention the growth of this need in the years to come. As I have previously said, we should not accept a proposal that does not include a efficient public transport system.
Comment 15.3 23 Oct 2008, 7:44 PM
GPT proposes no viable alternative .
The walk from Harbouview to Nobbies is the result of visionary civic leaders who provided us with that beautiful park beside the harbour.Compare that to Honeysuckle where there is not one sqaure inch of public parkland and you get the idea what GPT will deliver more concrete mediocre buildings which block out the harbour even more.
Shopping mall developers do not produce public open space.
Not one square metre of public space has been provide by Honeysuckle nor will this proposal.
Comment 15.3.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:30 PM
Another who sees the danger of the greed and lack of caring of developers. Haven't we seen enough over the last 11 years and what of the constant stream of complaints about the Planning Minister or the Land and Environment Court going the way of developers much to the angst of the general population. Developers want to extract every dollar can can from their investment, We have seen that so many times before.
Comment 15.3.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 12:28 PM
Yes, and people should see GPT's latest video compared to their earlier videos and ask yourselves: "What happened to that corridor that was in the earlier videos?" Don't like repeating myself but see www.youtube.com/gptnewcastle, and take a look for yourselves.
Comment 16 23 Oct 2008, 2:38 PM
I think at least the rail line dividing the cbd & foreshore should be removed & a last train stop for Newcastle city be at Wickham. A tram system could be used to take passengers to Nobbys, this could even be made a loop run through to the cbd & back to Wickham. I am also in favour of ending the rail line at Broadmeadow & having the same tram system from & to there. Cycle paths are a must in any case. I am fearful of Developers flying in, doing maximum roughshod development without caring for the cityscape & flying out. Plans for the removal of the rail & subsequent development must be clear. The hertitage and character of Newcastle must be apparent & the old Newcastle Station left intact.
Comment 16.1 23 Oct 2008, 7:53 PM
While there is no doubt that we would all benefit from an upgraded integrated transport system like that in Perh Adelaide and Melbourne no alternative is proposed here but the removal of rail so that developers can continue the so called beautification of the harbour and access which is already denied by massive overdevelopment so that the harbour is not even visible from Wickham to Civic .
Do we need more Honeysuckle type development, because that is what we'll get. We are still waiting for between 10 and 17 hectares of public parkland as proposed by Honeysuckle Development .
No decision should be made by any credible and independant body until viable replacement infrastructure is committed but that wont cme from a shopping mall developer will it?
Comment 16.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 9:45 AM
This is where the State or even Federal Goverments step in. The GPT proposal has finally given them some incentive to wake up and give the people of this town something other than the rough end of the stick.
The government must realise and act on the princple that a development of this size leaving the town will severely damage prospects of growth for the better. With their exit will go confidence as well. I aplaud their pro-active stance to say 'we believe the time is right for Newcastle to take hold of its destiny AND work with governments to improve the way city's public transport functions.'
The way CBD transport functions, effects commercial growth but also effects QUALITY of life here. Heavy rail has aided in killing commercial growth and is the forerunner in adverse effects to quality of life in the city. The city must grow.
Comment 16.1.2 29 Oct 2008, 11:51 AM
I think we all realise the time has arrived for Newcastle to set in place infrastructure for the future, it just so happens that GPT group has opened the can of worms by proposing the rail be terminated at Wickham.[ we still need to be aware of their proposed development around the Newcastle Station area]The Governments, Building Better Cities, City Planners, Council, & relevant Government bodies need to come into the fray now at this crucial time regarding Newcastles future infrastruture requirements-reconstruction of the present rail system- domestic & freight/coal.The time is now for this to all come together.
admin Comment 17 Moderator 23 Oct 2008, 2:51 PM
Emailed to administrator by 'Jody'
I've been a resident of Newcastle for over 40years. I've seen a thriving inner city and one thats like a ghost town. I believe the removal of the rail line from Wickham can only improve the inner city. Our foreshore is beautiful and opening it to the city area will bring more people into town. More people live in the inner city than ever before but it has this dangerous and tacky feel about it. If the developers want to spend this money to improve services then let them. This town has been dying for more…
Comment 17.1 24 Oct 2008, 5:46 PM
Cityrail must have a horrendous on time running records. What you say does not equates with official figures. There is an on time rate of over 90% with few trains cancelled. I too can speak from personal experience, not an exaggerated version of events.
Comment 17.2 29 Oct 2008, 2:37 PM
While the 'democratic' opinion of your social circle may seem all persuasive, there is the little problem of how the city's transport system will actually remain functional. The railway may not be the most beautiful edifice, but like roads, powerlines and drainage channels, its role is vital to Newcastle. Killing the rail means more peak hour congestion and parking issues and ultimately sacrifices long term viable growth for short term developer gain. If this appeals to you perhaps you should leave Newcastle a ghost town and move to Sydney where developer influence has created a 'democratic' utopia well befitting your ilk.
Comment 18 23 Oct 2008, 3:22 PM
The conspiracy theory that GPT is looking for excuse to get out of their development and is planning to use the NSW Government as an excuse just doesn't stack up.
GPT currently has one of the best reasons since the Great Depression in the form of the current financial crisis. The idea that they would get offside with the NSW Government by a fabricating a different reason to get out just defies logic. If the GPT proposal does fall over, we still need the Government to remove the railway from Wickham to Newcastle to promote development at the GPT site and all along Hunter Street. With good government policy and seed funding for improved infrastructure, someone will take up the opportunity if GPT doesn't proceed.
Comment 18.1 23 Oct 2008, 5:35 PM
GPT has already committed over $80 million to this project.
Wake up Newcastle - this city needs this kind of commercial development.
Comment 19 23 Oct 2008, 4:22 PM
I feel that the railways needs to be moved, it really does not operate is it did say 50 years ago, it was a vital link to the city. I myself grew up in Newcastle some 50 years. I remember my mother picking up from primary school and we would walk down hunters street, it was a very busy little metropolis, now I do not want to do to the city as it is so depressing. When one does go to the railway all you see around are old derelict buildings, time when got into the 21st century and brought Newcastle to the town it once was.
Comment 19.1 24 Oct 2008, 9:48 AM
Agreed lucian13. "Once was" and BETTER!
Comment 20 23 Oct 2008, 5:37 PM
While the rail line remains in place, who would want to invest a single cent in the development of Newcastle CDB? The rail line is an ugly unneccesary physical barrier between the CBD & the pleasant foreshore area. Why beautify the CBD, at great expense, to have such a shabby vestige detract from its' appearance & functionality. My advice to the developer would be to find another city or town that will welcome your investment. Newcastle should be allowed to decay until it becomes the ghetto we seem to want it to be. But we will have that great rail line to take us to the ghetto, should you be game enough to visit. After years of putting up with a squabbling dysfunctional Council, & safe State / Federal Members who cruised through their terms in office, why would any Newcastle citizen expect to live in an attractive modern city?
Comment 21 23 Oct 2008, 6:28 PM
It's been said already, but I'll say it again. Newcastle is an eyesore and is in desperate need of redevelopment. The ideas suggested by GPT have shown Newcastles true potential. Look at other cities around the world where there was a rail system in place dividing the harbour from CBD. The rail has been removed and the city boasts a much nicer and cleaner environment. The city as it stands is run down, every second building is vacant, and there is nothing attracting anyone including tourists to the place.
Make our city beautiful. Remove the rail line and connect the city to the harbour.
Comment 21.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:34 PM
Can you give examples of these cities or is this just a throwaway comment that we are used to. It is Hunter Street and adjacent streets that are the problem. How can you tie it in to the rail line. Yes, that can be cleaned and beautified but it must stay. Have we not learnt from the destruction of other lines/services be they trams or rail?
Comment 22 23 Oct 2008, 8:09 PM
I cannot belive there is debate over this. I live a short walk from Adamstown station and have not taken my family on the train to the C.B.D.I am ashamed in the lack of foresight that $650M can be lost due to a inconvience for a changeover at wickham station.If the train line goes the people will return. N.S.W. goverment want it to stay for it will cost then to remove and then take our money away from Sydney.
Comment 23 23 Oct 2008, 8:10 PM
Why is this topic even a debate, name one other city that has a rail line dividing it from one of it's greatest assets - in this case the harbour! The sooner this barrier is removed the sooner Newcastle can become a world class city. Let's take the opportunity to replace the rail line with a light rail system that could also service The Junction and Beaumont St, thus linking 3 of the most important areas of the inner city with a user friendly and efficient means of transport. Newcastle needs to take a lead and show the rest of Australia how to make the most of such a fantastic opportunity!!!
Comment 23.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:36 PM
And what do you propose we do with all the vacant, derelict shops in Hunter Street that are not part of GPT's proposal? As for light rail, it is very expensive and who will pay? Please explain? It seems everyone has an idea but not the cash.
Comment 23.2 29 Oct 2008, 6:53 AM
San Diego, a world class city. Next question.
Comment 23.3 31 Oct 2008, 1:28 AM
San Deigo! Look for yourself at the video: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7nG2dgMT0FE
Comment 23.3.1 31 Oct 2008, 6:13 PM
And what is the point of citing San Diego. Did they get their system for free?? As I said. Everyone has an idea but no cash to provide it.
Comment 24 24 Oct 2008, 7:37 AM
This following statement was lodged with Letter to the Editor, Newcastle Herald (20.10.08)
With the raising of the heavy rail issue again upon us once more I know that I am right is saying that this issue is now going to become a real loadstone for the state government. If it has any hope in saving its bacon come next election it will have to be very clear and decisive on where it wants to stand on the future of the critical revitalisation plans for the city's CBD.
The existing transport corridor (lets not look at it in any other way) is more…
Comment 25 24 Oct 2008, 8:21 AM
I work at Honeysuckle and have to go through the rail gates at Wickham station regularly and usually get stopped there at least once a day. Sitting there watching a train hold up the all traffic when there is lucky to be 1 person in each carriage is very frustrating. Also when I need to go into Newcastle I have to walk down to Wickham Station or Civic Station as there is other crossing between them. The rail line needs to be cut west of the Hannel Street gates asap.
Comment 25.2 24 Oct 2008, 3:10 PM
I bet the train was a Sydney train which would have emptied out at both Broadmeadow and Hamilton. The trains from Scone/Muswellbrook and Stroud would be almost full. By the way how many other people did you have in your car then, bet there was only one, yourself.
jEFF
Comment 25.2.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:40 PM
Spot on also. One of the major problems in Newcastle and its environs is the number of cars with only one person on board. How environmentally friendly is that? There are far more traffic lights and many more delays caused by them but hey, are you complaining about that.
Comment 25.2.1.1 3 Nov 2008, 11:06 PM
If the system is user friendly, services the CBD effectively (all of it, not just Watt St & Merwether St) then maybe people might use it.
Comment 25.3 25 Oct 2008, 12:48 PM
Dear rcm4,
I travel by train into Newcastle and the trains are not empty, as you assert. Your problem is related to the stopping of traffic at the crossing, not the number of passengers using the services or, indeed, the provision of the service. The obvious solution is to build an overpass/underpass as has occurred at Metford, not by the removal of a public infrastructure asset. This problem will not be resolved by asserting that there should be only one or two options for transport, any by inferring that your needs are more important than the needs of others. Being a community, means that many differing needs must be met.
As to your demand for access at any point to Newcastle from the foreshore side, what about the road grid and the many buildings stopping your planned foray? You can't walk through buildings and must therefore find access by traversing the streets. We do not tear down the buildings for greater access, and nor should we do so with the rail line.
Comment 26 24 Oct 2008, 1:33 PM
The railway line to Newcastle is a vital part of our infrastructure. Germany is the most progressive public transport country in the world, and they're putting in railway lines and reopening old lines. We should be looking at adding railway lines to Belmont and Nelson Bay as this is the way of the future.
Studies have shown that people are reluctant to Multi-mode their public transport use and will drive their cars instead. The City and Governments should be actively encouraging people to leave their cars at home.
Remove the line and you still have Wharf Rd and a line of more…
Comment 26.1 24 Oct 2008, 3:46 PM
Imagine the surfers, elderly and incapacitated glee,not to mention the general public, if they could emerge from whichever form of transport they arrived at wickham interchange on, embark on the every 15minute loop bus ( sorry, would love light rail but at this stage can't see the $$$$$$ to obtain )and could access every beach up to merewether and other suitable sites via raised platforms to allow both wheelchair and elderly disembarkment.
You could even do as they do in Melbourne and have the loop transport run in opposite directions simaltaneously making access to your desired stop even easier.
This would hopefully have a knock on effect of aiding some parking issues throughout the city, and along the beachfront.
Comment 26.1.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:42 PM
But who pays and you still not have addressed to state of Hunter Street and adjacent streets. That is the burning issue hear. Do we want more polluting buses on our roads as well?
Comment 26.1.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 9:17 AM
The federal minister Sharon Grieson has said regarding the newly formed Major Cities Unit;
"we have discussed ways Major Cities could help Newcastle, not just with GPT but for Newcastle and its mall and its links.
"It's not just for GPT. Any developer will need certainty about transport services and the public domain and holistic planning of the city"
as far as polluting is concerned, where do you think the energy comes from to power the trains? From coal powered fire stations. The idea that the trains are green is false.
The buses cold be powered by electricity sourced from green energy quite easily.
with regard to the state of hunter st,I would have thought the GPT precinct represents a fairly significant start in the process.
If we are just going to look at everything in a negative light, and not try and make the most of opptunity, we are derelict in our duites, and our children will hold us in contempt.
Comment 26.1.1.1.1 31 Oct 2008, 6:15 PM
The coal fired power stations provide the power for all our needs, including light rail, trams etc. Should we then turn off our lights etc because of that??
Comment 26.1.2 29 Oct 2008, 2:58 PM
Perhaps you've never taken a bus down hunter st or, for that matter, anywhere else in your life. A bus trip from Wickham to Newcastle station will drag on for at least 15 minutes during peak hour while the train breezes through in a few minutes. Far from glee, surfers have difficulty fitting onto a crowed bus and, for a 'mal' longboard, even getting past the door. Likewise the elderly and incapacitated are subject to the tedious and time consuming process of boarding a bus, not to mention the continous jarring as it lurches forward in congested traffic. The parking issues of newcastle require more than a 'bus loop'. We need a fully intergrated train and bus system, ideally with a large parking station at broadmeadow.
Comment 26.1.3 31 Oct 2008, 1:34 AM
The train from Wickham to Newcastle takes 4 minutes (check the timetable). No changeover, no extra waiting.
If you make commuters wait, those that can will switch to car.
If more people come by car, there'll be more traffic and fewer vacant parking spots.
As for bus, it can take around 15 mins just to get down Hunter St in peak traffic. Even more traffic means even slower buses.
Comment 27 24 Oct 2008, 3:50 PM
I guess we probably don't need heavy rail into Newcastle but we still definately need rail right into Newcastle. All these people who say they sit at the railway crossings and watch near empty trains go past then obviously don't see the same trains that I travel on. I work in Newcastle CBD and travel in from the Toronto area daily. I struggle to get a seat some days on the train as it is so crowded. Lots of passengers get off at various stops along the way but when I get off the train at Civic or Newcastle there more…
Comment 27.1 24 Oct 2008, 6:43 PM
Well said!! Another common sense opinion and without the emotion.
Comment 27.2 24 Oct 2008, 9:08 PM
I grew up in Newcastle. I lived a 2 minute walk from Broadmeadow Train station. In all those years of mum taking us into the Ocean Baths in summer (mum can't drive) not once did we catch the train.
We caught the bus which conveniently dropped us at Parnell Place for a short stroll down to the Baths.
Try living in Sydney and getting a train to the beach!
Comment 28 24 Oct 2008, 9:04 PM
First of all let me say I grew up in Newcastle. I left after completing my HSC to go to uni in Sydney. I learnt a lot about transport and access in Sydney. It is rare that you can get from point A to point B with one mode of transport. It often involves catching a bus to a train and then some distance of walking.
So why in Newcastle are we so opposed to improving our city by having the heavy rail line cease at Wickham or may I even suggest Hamilton.
The rail line is ugly, pure and more…
Comment 29 24 Oct 2008, 9:46 PM
It is not just GPT who believes that removing the rail line will increase the number of people who visit Hunter Street. It is also not just the unanimous support of prominent businessman report in The Herald on Saturday 18/10/08. It is also the small business owners in Hunter Street. I live and shop in the city. I have not met one small business owners who thinks the railway line should stay. They all believe it is a liability, not an asset.
Comment 30 25 Oct 2008, 7:54 AM
WHAT FORESHORE ? Where have all the Rip Van Winkles been for the last two decades ? Novocastrians affectionally refer to what is left of our wonderful foreshore, as the grassed section between Nobbys and the old Lynches 'prawn cupola', approximately at Brown Street - used as a westward street reference. Have they not noticed the rows of buildings westwards from there on ? - both down Hunter Street, and both sides of Wharf Road? We have already sadly lost our potential for the world's best continuing grassed foreshore, and clearly our rail is not a barrier to foreshore access more…
Comment 30.1 28 Oct 2008, 3:38 PM
Well said! The rail detractors have yet to demonstrate how the closure of the rail line will open up the city to the foreshore. As you point out, it will not.
One or two additional pedestrian level crossings (suitably gated) would achieve as much at a fraction the cost of any alternative to rail line closure.
Comment 31 25 Oct 2008, 8:15 AM
A challenge for the "Save our Rail at any cost" group.
Professor Steffen Lehmann, Chair of Architectural Design, University of Newcastle (who has vast experience working on improving cities around the world) has very publicly stated that the most significant barrier to the revitilisation of Newcastle is the heavy railway line between Wickham and Newcastle. His view has been supported by many others including those who have put their name to the GPT Proposal.
The challenge to those who want to retain the line is to find a qualified Urban Planner who looks at the NEWCASTLE situation, the NEWCASTLE GPT Proposal, the NEWCASTLE passenger numbers on the trains, the NEWCASTLE geography where the line runs between NEWCASTLE Harbour and Hunter Street and after all that reports that retaining the railway line is superior to the GPT Proposal.
I look forward to reading his article in The Herald.
Comment 31.1 25 Oct 2008, 3:56 PM
Professor Lehmann also spoke about the need to have a frequent bus service of a special type used in places like Brazil that can carry items such as wheelchairs, prams etc.These do not exist in the newcastle bus fleet and the government will not be supplying them. GPT will not be contributing one cent to ongoing transport costs.
Comment 31.1.1 25 Oct 2008, 6:14 PM
Micah
I agree. The Herald today (Saturday) reported that things were moving on that front. An interchange at Wickham requires frequuent high quality bus services that connect to trains. The newer buses in the Newcastle Buses fleet are wheelchair accessible, but of course they should all be like that. Hopefully this will be an outcome of additional Federal Funding.
The return for the government (which hopefully will find its way into better public transport) is through increased taxes due to increased business, etc in Hunter Street. Increased land values also leads to increase Land Tax. I can't imagine the current stock in Hunter Street West is contibuting much in this respect. As Steffen Lehmann pointed out at his recent City Hall lecture, there is huge potential because of all the existing buildings in Hunter Street and the spare capacity in the existing Public Transport network. The point of the GPT proposal is that small seed funding (as detailed in today's Herald) will generate significant returns for the government.
Comment 32 25 Oct 2008, 8:16 AM
Removed by moderator. Comment was deemed offensive, inappropriate or spam.
Comment 33 25 Oct 2008, 1:37 PM
As a rail user for the last ten years usiing both the sydney and hunter lines I contiune to notice the lack of patronage of the inner city stations. I travel to and from Hamilton 6 days a week. when I get on or off at my station I notice that only a few go or come from the city. thats 3 stations Whickam, Civic and Newcastle stations.
The agument of changeover is baseless. Go visit the great cities of the world for example London, Paris and Newyork their networks are based on changeovers. So does Sydney
I ask why does more…
Comment 33.1 25 Oct 2008, 8:28 PM
QUOTE: I contiune to notice the lack of patronage of the inner city stations...only a few go or come from the city. thats 3 stations Whickam, Civic and Newcastle stations. END QUOTE
See the link in my post (Oct 25, 2008 07:30pm) in the "Do you use the rail line now" discussion.
Comment 33.2 26 Oct 2008, 2:34 PM
There are changeovers because their system is far more expansive than ours. Tell me how the London Underground could be made to work without them. Likewise the Paris Metro. I have been to both and they work well because the system requires changeovers. But remember, both the London Underground and the Paris Metro are HEAVY RAIL!!! No light rail there.
Comment 33.2.1 28 Oct 2008, 8:29 PM
the point is changeovers are effective, and it not only includes rail. many areas of london are serviced by bus, and thats my point.
a big complaint is the inconvenience of having to get off one service and onto another and this is exactly what all those great networks have. and what I want
An effective network of transport.
Comment 33.2.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 9:04 PM
Newcastle does not need them. hy create inconvenience when it is not necessary?
Comment 33.2.2 3 Nov 2008, 11:19 PM
London is undergound, and much of Paris metro is elevated, no comparison. Metro systems work best with higher population density, prepare now as the inner city will become more populated.
Comment 33.2.2.1 11 Nov 2008, 7:03 PM
There are 2 distinct, separate systems in London and Paris. They both enjoy extensive underground systems and likewise, extensive above ground systems. Newcastle only has above ground as so far no one has been able to provide positive proof that removing the rail line will in some way improve the CBD, open it up to development or in any way change the CBD from what it currently is.
Comment 34 25 Oct 2008, 5:24 PM
For the future of one of the most important cities in Australia I feel we could show the world the great potential of a sucessful solar powered/green grid (wind power) monorail system linking Wickham, Newcastle cbd with Charlestown Westfield(Kotara) Energy Australia Stadium and back to Wickham.This loop of public transport could see council change the residential zoning to high density like European cities and restrict the continual deforestation of the Hunter Valley for urbanisation.Visitors from overseas love the fact that 20 minutes west of the University of Newcastle is native bush -but for how much longer?
The feasability and cost of creating a monorail would be in the many millions but the benefits of producing a green powered monorail would with the amazing new and existing developments of Charlestown Westfield Kotara Enegy Australia Stadium expansion and of course the 600 million dollar Newcastle cbd development create one of the most amazing cities on the planet.Here's our chance to show the world !!!
Comment 34.1 27 Oct 2008, 4:13 PM
What about a subway system instead as the monorail may be considered unsightly by many
Comment 34.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 4:38 PM
Newcastle does not have the polulation to support such extensive development. It exists in Europe because the population is such that it can be paid for by multiple countries. The high speed rail network is an example of that and it is all above ground and heavy rail. Carries millions upon millions, in fact it is more convenient and generally faster to use high speed trains than fly if you commence at your doorstep and go right through to your physical destination. 300kmh and upwards. I have the video of a cab ride to prove it.
Comment 34.1.2 31 Oct 2008, 9:58 AM
Alot of people are saying they dont use the train, SO why a subway system.
Look at Sydney and a few other places. The antiSocial behaviour of people. Sorry subway out of question due to people with lack of respect.
Comment 35 25 Oct 2008, 5:37 PM
IT IS NOT JUST ABOUT THE RAIL
ITIS ABOUT OUR CITY NEWCASTLE
It is about a disgraceful , neglected & unsafe city
Ruled by vandals , binge drinkers & drugs
In which half our shops are closed or have relocated to other areas
In which none of us have any pride & the majority of our citizens never visit
Yes , people do visit the foreshore but turnaway from the CBD & West End in disgust
How can we welcome Cruise Ships to our city without feeling shame & embarrassment
Many Heritage buildings damaged by the earthquake & cyclone remain in a pitiful state
Relocating the Law Courts out more…
Comment 35.1 31 Oct 2008, 10:08 AM
Some of your ideas are good.
Maybe what we should do is PULL NEWCASTLE DOWN and rebuild.
Ther eis so many complaints about the city and how it is built. Then in another 100 years pull it down again as it might not *FIT THE CRITERIA OF THE RESIDENTS* will anyone ever be happy with what they may have
Alot of us have complaints about the city but this is all about the RAIL being shut down pulled up or what ever you want to call it. Is it that far for where it finishes now.
Do a design that will allow the line to stay. Maybe the Units house and all the stuff going into the new development can offer free tickets from Broadmedow.
100 years pull it down again. will anyone ever be happy with what they may have
Comment 36 25 Oct 2008, 7:02 PM
I have been residing in Newcastle now for most of my 35 years. I enjoy living in Newcastle and the conveniences it offers. The Honeysuckle development has been a wonderful success as it now showcases our beautiful foreshore in a sophisticated way. The atmosphere on the waterfront there is exciting. It is this excitement that I fear will vanish is people still hold onto the past and keep the railway line there. It clearly divides the ghost town CBD and the lovely foreshore. This needs to change now! The CBD can be revitalised it just needs forward thinking individuals. I say go ahead with the development. After all if the railway line stops at Wickham it is only 2 stops away from the CBD anyway. I want to be proud of our city. Lets thinkk to the future. Look what the development in Vancouver has done to its city- A wonderful success story that our town can creat here. Newcastle is the 6th largest city in Australia, lets start bahaving like one.
A proud novacastrian!
Comment 37 25 Oct 2008, 8:18 PM
Let's see if posting in this one works
The question of do you think that the rail line inhibits development of the city? ANSWER is a STRONG NO.
In reality this issue should be about the CBD as a whole, not just another rail debate.
Most of the CBD is on one side of the rail line, and has footbridges and crossings to be able to cross, but I will say that Stewart Ave should have built as a bridge, and you can access the foreshore.
BLAMING THE RAIL LINE?: Okay suppose a light rail line takes a place of the heavy rail, and you see just as many empty buildings, will you then also blame the light rail line for supposedly making the CBD go downhill? YES or NO.
TRAMS (LIGHT RAIL): In regards to trams/light rail, in Adelaide for most of the trip, the trams run on private right-on-way with many level crossings. Could you not argue that this line divides their city on that section?
Comment 37.1 25 Oct 2008, 8:35 PM
Why is the edit this comment still there, when it states it is after the 10 min. limit?
But I should have said "In reality this issue should be about the CBD as a whole, not just about a single issue."
Comment 38 27 Oct 2008, 12:24 AM
I work in the city centre, and recently spent a few months catching the ferry to get into town. I can't believe the number of people calling the rail line an impediment between the foreshore and city.
My experience (as an overweight, middle aged, asthmatic) was that it only took a minute or so to walk over the overhead bridge into the centre of the mall. The actual impediment that the rail line proved was nothing - crossing the road to get to one of the overhead bridges took longer. I think the impediment that the rail line makes is more…
Comment 38.1 28 Oct 2008, 4:41 PM
Very well spoken. As of today, GPT's share price on the Stock Market is 67 cents, down from $1.15. Does not make for a sound future to me. They are selling off their assets in a massive fire sale to raise cash. How good is their word now?
Comment 38.1.1 31 Oct 2008, 10:10 AM
WELL that will tell you wont it....another EYE saw not finished if they go bust
Comment 39 27 Oct 2008, 9:22 AM
We currently have a vital rail link to the centre of Newcastle City that serves North and South destinations. On alighting there is a maximum of 3 city blocks walk to any destination from either Civic or Newcastle, whether it be the beach, Court House, new home units or CBD, with an existing free city bus service, including Parnall Place or over The Hill to Hamilton/Market-Town if required.
Wickham would not provide this convenience. To change to light rail will not prevent, but INCREASE crossing hold-ups, just more car stoppages for a hopefully increased tram service to cross at Civic more…
Comment 40 27 Oct 2008, 12:20 PM
Anyone attending the Breast Cancer walk on 26th October will be able to attest to the divisive and uselessness of the Newcastle rail line. On a day where 3500 people needed to get into the city and walk 5km, the Newcastle train line was not operational and replaced with busses.
In the past a vocal minority have voiced an outdated and self serving argument to retain something that is in their minds a public asset. Now is the time for the silent majority to speak and give our political “leaders” the opportunity to do the populous act (something they do well!) and remove barriers that inhibit our prosperous future.
This is one of the greatest opportunities for our city in living memory! The small minded thinking of the past must be overcome and a vision for the future embraced. For a community to want to hold onto a piece of out dated unnecessary infrastructure is lunacy.
Comment 40.1 27 Oct 2008, 6:34 PM
I noticed the same thing on Sunday. 4000 people massing only a couple of hundred meters from the Rail Station and it was seen as so unimportant to the traveling public and organizing authority that it was closed for track work. The buses that replaced it all appeared very empty.
If it is not going to be used on arguably the busiest day of the year for the CBD why is it necessary at all?
Surely the absolute minority of people who utilize this service can be accommodated by a from of light rail or bus and open up the city’s best asset, the foreshore.
Comment 40.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 5:16 PM
David A & Big Pete: If the train line was not closed for trackwork, would a lot of those around 4,000 have used the train?
We know trackwork & maintentance is a pain, but they have to do it at sometime.
Comment 40.1.2 31 Oct 2008, 10:12 AM
PEOPLE HATE it when busses replace trains for trackwork. People put off there trip because of it.
How do you think they will feel when they have to catch the bus for that short time.
Comment 40.1.2.1 31 Oct 2008, 10:14 AM
SORRY LOLOLOL there is that word. I spelt BUSSES not Buses. I have corrected myself. xxxxx to all
Comment 41 27 Oct 2008, 12:56 PM
LETS MOVE ON: Yes the top end of town was once the hub of the city but that was then this is NOW!and we cannot go back.
With Wickham being the Transport Center it will not only benifit Newcastle it is perfectly situated to facilitate access to the Hunter Valley and Port Stephens for visitors to our City.
What we need to is get people bck into Newcastle so lets have a spring clean. Spend some money on refubishing the Art Gallery and forget about any more proposals utilise the existing buildings that we have if only for a stop gap measure. more…
Comment 42 27 Oct 2008, 2:40 PM
In its current state, the rail line is probably economically neutral for the city (though it has many social and environmental advantages).
However, a landscaped, permeable rail corridor (with strategically placed at-grade pedestrian crossings) could become the basis for a revitalised city.
A truly revitalised city has to have a sustainable transport system, and no system is as sustainable as rail (heavy or light).
It's the fence and the lack of crossings that prevent connectivity - not the rail line itself - certainly no more than the two roads on each side of the rail line, and no one is saying that they more…
Comment 42.1 31 Oct 2008, 1:41 AM
Here is a video of San Diego so you can see for yourself how their level crossings provide the necessary access: http://au.youtube.com/watch?v=7nG2dgMT0FE
Comment 42.1.1 31 Oct 2008, 10:16 AM
You are talking about Newcastle here. NOT A BIG PLACE but bigg enough for the people that live here. Get people to come here and then think about all these great ideas.
Comment 42.1.2 3 Nov 2008, 2:42 AM
Yes, I've walked across those crossings in San Diego personally. And what you get is the feeling that that was a system designed for the convenience of car users. Yes, it's not that ugly, but when heavy rail does come through (fortunately not too often) you have to stop and think about how hard it would be for one of those buggers to stop if you actually weren't paying attention.
Comment 42.2 3 Nov 2008, 2:35 AM
Heavy rail doesn't stop in a hurry.
Comment 43 28 Oct 2008, 6:55 AM
Congratulation to Jodi McKay on taking a firm stand with GPT and others on maintaining the Newcastle rail line. Keep up the good work - all those who fought hard to keep the line in 2005 and 2006 are right behind you.
GPT has known all along that the community and government had taken a decision 2 years ago to retain the line. I smell a rat here - I suspect GPT is planning to bail out anyway and want a face-saving excuse - we have seen this classic big business bail out strategy before in Newcastle with Austeel and more…
Comment 44 28 Oct 2008, 8:22 AM
LIGHT RAIL PROBLEMS ... AOA your contribution was well balanced and factually informative for the uninitiated. I too alighted from Sydney a few Sundays ago, on time as usual at 11.01 am, and I counted over 100 passengers alighting at Newcastle, several with boards or luggage ! Speaks for itself.
I have another point that is being conveniently overlooked by the Light Rail enthusiasts. A decade ago, Wharf Road was a 6 lane straight road to Wickham, with wonderful all-the-way vistas of our wonderful working harbour, and few buildings en route to speak of. The over random development of this wharf more…
Comment 44.1 28 Oct 2008, 10:07 AM
100 people hardly speaks for itself. If that is the high water mark, than i think the decision to remove the line is all the more easy. How many of these people are only using Newcastle to change to a connecting train? this can be done at any station.
In reference to the what may replace a train line, once it is removed it will allow planners with some open space in which to design an integrated and appropriate system.
I also regularly catch the train from Maitland to Hamilton and admit that it is an efficient (yet in my more…
Comment 44.1.1 28 Oct 2008, 4:53 PM
Big Pete, passengers do not go into Newcastle to connect with another train, they do it at Hamilton as the trains generally connect with each other there. This is called "Timetabling". The only connection made by passengers at Newcastle Station are the bus services to Nelson Bay and Cessnock. So the 100 hundred are for Newcastle City or connecting buses. Pretty darn good if you ask me.
Comment 44.1.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 8:42 AM
Bus or train who cares? The point is people may be on the service just to get connecting "transport" (if that term makes you happy.) And if we believe that 100 people as a high water mark is a significant number than we are being very narrow minded.
Comment 44.1.1.2 31 Oct 2008, 10:21 AM
Yes alot do go to Hamilton.
As a kid we always went to Newcastle to catch the train to go to Sydney due to * GETTING A SEAT*
Times have changed due to CARS, Planes, etc.
NOW what is going to be sitting on the space where NEWCASTLE STATION is going to be. EXACTLY where it is.
Comment 44.1.2 28 Oct 2008, 5:19 PM
Big Pete, have you had a look at GPT's latest video?
Comment 44.2 3 Nov 2008, 2:49 AM
Heavy rail imposes longer waits on crossings thanks to the uncertainties of an (ancient) signaling system and of course built into that is stopping times. Light rail has the advantage that its more like a bus - they can actually stop in a hurry. And thus they don't require the traffic to be held up for as long.
Comment 44.2.1 3 Nov 2008, 2:50 AM
If you don't believe me, watch how well the light rail in Sydney interacts with traffic.
Comment 44.3 3 Nov 2008, 11:28 PM
A decade ago Wharf Rd was the same width it is now,6 lanes ??,there was rail yards & wharf storage between the Hunter St shops/business houses and the waterfront, less public accessible open space. There were railway tracks in the roadway (cycle hazards) and it was a goat track. Move on!
Comment 45 28 Oct 2008, 2:54 PM
I beleive the people of newcastle are inhibiting the growth of the city. The rail line is used as a source of transport and therefore should be seen as an asset to the city. The lack of interest in the city from external sources and our own residents is what is stopping development. Hunter street is a cesspool, abandoned shops, graffiti, and rubish litter the streets, who wants to go visit that? The abandoned post-office, which is a magnificent building and a testiment to newcastles former glory has been left there to be inhabited by the homeless. In my opinion i beleive that the rail line is definetly not the problem.
Comment 46 28 Oct 2008, 6:33 PM
Real numbers everybody!
Average number of passengers per train past Hamilton - Cityrail figues
1997 - 33
2003 - 29
2008 - 27
How can you justify splitting a city in two by running a heavy rail line for 1/2 a bus load of people who could change to a bus for nothing?
Where is this growth in patronage caused by high fuel prices and congestion?
Edit this comment
Comment 46.1 10 Nov 2008, 9:38 PM
Last Tuesday (Nov 4) I walked through the 7.46 am Telarah to Newcastle train after it left Hamilton for Newcastle and counted the remaining passengers. Not 27, not 47, not 67 BUT 104 people still on the train.
I did the same thing this morning (Monday 10 Nov). Not 27, not 47, not 104 BUT 126.
Unlike your averages, THESE are REAL NUMBERS - they are a count of people actually on the train.
The daily averages fail to reflect that the trains run 23 hours of the day and the passenger numbers are not evenly distributed over that time. What really counts is the number of people using the train in normal business hours and your averages are a very poor measure of that.
Comment 47 28 Oct 2008, 8:59 PM
a couple of points
Firstly . Those who do not live in the electorate should find a forrum for their views, Im not saying your views arenot inportant but that Jodie dosnt represent you. Ansd to that Jodie should represent our views not yours.
On the point of elderly, invalid and parents with prams having trouble with getting from one mode of transport at a new Whickam station to another I reply that these people are vastly in the minority presently because of the pitifull state of our network thus far. Can they get to stations easily like Cardiff, kotara, adamstown,whickam more…
Comment 47.1 28 Oct 2008, 10:51 PM
Tonyw, one of Jodi's titles is Member for the Hunter.
Comment 47.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 5:44 AM
Yes I know that, but her main JOB is to represent those who voted her into polotics. she should remember that.
Comment 47.1.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 9:43 AM
I can see your point to a point, but she is the Minister for Tourism & Hunter (at least Costa's not minister for Hunter now!)
So you are saying that if people live outside her seat and commute to Newcastle by transport aren't entitled to have their say, even though the issue affects them?
This forum was set up for several areas of Australia including the Hunter area.
Comment 47.1.1.1.1 29 Oct 2008, 4:07 PM
Did I say they dont have a right to a say. NO
Perhaps they should contact their own state member who when then report your concerns to Jodie. minister for the Hunter is a role she has but as our elected representitive of the newcastle electorate Jodie should represent our views first and foremost. Why should those outside of the electorate use our member to voice their concerns.
I do note however that you cannot debate any other facets of my posting apart from jodies conflicting representation.
Comment 47.1.1.1.2 31 Oct 2008, 10:25 AM
Thats TRUE....LOOK AT STEAM FESTIVAL ALOT OF PEOPLE COME TO THAT.....MAITLAND....NEWCASTLE...SYDNEY..THEY TRAVEL TO ATTEND SO THEY CAN HAVE THEIR SAY TO.
JODI HAS TO GET PEOPLE INTO THE HUNTER,NEWCASTLE,ALL WITHIN AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1 31 Oct 2008, 12:36 PM
The main activites of steamfest is held at Matiland ??
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.1 31 Oct 2008, 6:22 PM
And each year they run trains into Newcastle Station. Several of them in fact.
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 11:44 AM
But the main activities are at Matiland.... So what does that have to do with the connection between Newcastle & Wickham ??? Nothing !!!!
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 6:01 PM
There was an article in The Herald only some weeks ago complaining of the "engine Road" at Newcastle Station no longer being available for steam locomotives to run around their trains in Newcastle. Steamfest also has trains running to Paterson and at times Branxton. It does not just revolve around Maitland. It has as much to do with the topic as most of your comments!!
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1 2 Nov 2008, 2:53 PM
This has nothing to do with the topic at the top of the page.... Once again you are getting off the beating track !!! My comments make more sense than yours, as you always change the subject !! get back to the topic !!
Steam trains can't go to Newcastle station as you stated, So why bring it up ?? That means the History is gone from that Era !!
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.1.1.1.1.1 4 Nov 2008, 8:45 AM
Richard. Of course your comments make more sense than mine. That is because your ego says that. You make comments that are irrelevant, refuse to answer simple questions and make insutlting remarks towards those who disagree with you.
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.2 2 Nov 2008, 3:07 PM
Havent you had a ride on a steam train. I thought there was the race. PLUS how do the people get there to maitland SIR,
I know of people that come from SYDNEY BY TRAIN AND GO TO MAITLAND BY TRAIN> SO I GUESS THEY MIGHT COME TO HAMMO. OR MAYBE NEWCASTLE and they return the same way. SO HOW IS THAT.
Yes most of it is help at Maitland. BUT it used to or maybe or is it still doing the track....PITTY SIR you havent got your own web page for this
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.2.1 2 Nov 2008, 7:29 PM
Tran.... Where do they race too... Matiland to where ??
Think about it... Not Newcastle station, years ago yes not nowadays !!
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.2.1.1 2 Nov 2008, 8:02 PM
While it's not really part of the topic, if two steam trains are in the "The Great Race" for steamfest, one starts from Newcastle, the other starts from Broadmeadow & run parallel to just before Maitland Station. Steamfest started to celeberate the last steam hauled trains in regular service in Australia. Maitland Steamfest is now officially called Hunter Valley Steamfest.
Part of The Herald article on H.V. Steamfest that Judogazza mentions states:
QUOTE:
"If we have to exclude Newcastle . . . it will be to the DETRIMENT of Newcastle businesses and, I believe, [to] the event because of the number of people we have who book train tickets from Newcastle to Maitland," he said.
END QUOTE
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.2.1.2 4 Nov 2008, 8:48 AM
Richard, the race is from Sandgate to Maitland. The race does NOT start in Maitland.
Comment 47.1.1.1.2.1.2.1.2.1 4 Nov 2008, 6:15 PM
Just noticed I left something out. If two trains are available, one starts from Newcastle, the other from Broadmeadow, and "race" (term race used lightly) from around near Islington Junction area to just before Maitland Station.
Now back to topic (we hope!)
Comment 47.1.2 29 Oct 2008, 1:45 PM
Yes, and the other is for tourism. So don't you think she should be encouraging a CBD that generates a tourism attraction?
A city of thriving activity and mixed use. One with easy access from a great shopping complex to an awesome working harbour. One with safe cycle ways and light rail. And maybe like the trams are in many other cities around the world, have a Newcastle's Famous Tram that actually is famous?
People seem to be complaining about accessability for the elderly, those with prams and the disabled, how do you think these people get from say David Jones to the harbour now? It's a long way around with a walking stick.
I know a lot of Novocastrians are scared of change, but change can be a great thing, especially when we have very few options of improving this city any other way. If GPT are going to give this town the kickstart to encourage local businesses and more tourism, then why don't we let go of the rail, it's only two stops, and there's a free bus anyway!
Comment 47.1.2.1 29 Oct 2008, 4:11 PM
I fully believe thatthe save the railers are in the minority, however they are motivated and organised to fight change. the majority of Novocastrians are not in the discussion at all.
I know I wasnt untill Jodie said that we have already spoken on this issue. AND I KNOW THATS NOT THE CASE
Comment 49 29 Oct 2008, 6:35 PM
just some data about rail and bus travellings along hunter street between 6am and 6 pm weekdays.My intention is to show just how much public transport is being concentrated in the cbd area, Whilst other areas go without
Buses first
100, 101, 103, 108 --- into town 38 jounrneys
--- out 34
111 --- into 7
--- out 9
222, 230, 231,235 --- into 60
--- out 55
317 --- into 15
--- out 16
322 --- into 13
--- out 14
334 --- into 12
--- out 16
349, 350, 351 --- into 37
--- out 25
363 --- into 24
--- out 22
for a grand total of --- 397 bus journeys
trains from dungog/maitland - into 29
out 32
from sydney line into 27
out 26
train total journeys total 114
a cumalative total is 511 journeys along the newcastle corridoor between 6 and 6 weekdays
Do you think this is a waste when most of these services are underutilised
I have tried my best to be as accurate as I can
Comment 50 30 Oct 2008, 10:55 AM
Hi my name is Tony and I grew up in Hanell Street Wickham. When I was 5 years old my parents left their home and in 1962 we moved to Charlestown as the then Newcastle City Council was buying up homes in order to build the Stewart Ave overpass.
Forty odd years later I laughed as the level crossing was opened. People of Newcastle wake up a smell the roses, we have been left behind....time to catch up with the rest of the world.
Get rid of the rail at Broadmeadow. Light rail may be an option but lets open up the city to it's waterfront heritage.
Comment 51 30 Oct 2008, 1:17 PM
It would seem that the only people who want the railway line gone are the people who do not use it. These people should have a ride on the train and take notice of where all the future buildings will be erected between Wickham and Civic stations. The only access will be from the two road crossings that are ready to cut across the tracks now. As for East of Civic, the buildings already cut access up to within a couple of hundred yards of Newcastle Station, why do we have to get rid of two kilometers of railway line for only two hundred yards of access!
Comment 51.1 30 Oct 2008, 3:33 PM
I use the rail line 6 days a week and fully support the removal.
To me it seems that quite a lot of the people who want the rail line do not use it but I wont use that as argument as I REALLY DONT KNOW WHO USES IT
maybe you should think of that
admin Comment 52 Moderator 30 Oct 2008, 2:49 PM
Dear Jodi
I recently forwarded a fax lodging my objection to the rail line continuing to Newcastle station.
After reading the Herald this morning I wish to lodge my objection on this website to the continuation of the rail Newcastle is in desperate need for redevelopment & I cannot believe that you and our council are not doing everything possible to encourage GPT to continue with their proposed development plans.
Newcastle is a disgrace & has been since the earthquake in 1989. We had the opportunity to rebuild & modernise the city at that time, but let the opportunity pass. We had more…
Comment 52.1 30 Oct 2008, 8:19 PM
Just a little bit of history for you. The trains, both diesel and locomotive hauled cars were at one time cleaned in the Newcastle East yards where there were sidings for that purpose. The single story brick building adjacent to the carriage sheds was the offices for said sidings. The sidings were removed to give you your Foreshore. If these trains are not to be cleaned, decanted and serviced at Broaddmeadow, where do you suggest they are??
Comment 52.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 11:51 AM
Bit of reality for you.. Them train yards are gone now !!!
Why aren't they serviced where there final stop is ??
So they make an unnecessary journey with no passangers on board !
Comment 52.1.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 6:05 PM
Wow, a reality check for me. I must have been going back to the old days each time I have been at The Foreshore and in particular the old Newcastle East Rail Yards. The trains cannot be cleaned and serviced at Newcastle. There is no room and no facilities. Gee Richard, you are really using that super intelligence you claim to have!! Anyone with intelligence can see that. Do you know how long it takes to clean and service them? No, by the sound of it. The facilities at Broadmeadow comprise 2 tracks adjacent to Coorumbung road which hold 10 intercity carrriages each. Over at the maintenance centre there is a shed with 3 rods, approximately 100 metres long. This is in addition to another 3 tracks of 300 metres for storage of trains waiting to depart. Are you saying all of this can be accomodated in Newcastle Station? It seems like it to me...."Why aren't they serviced where there final stop is??"
Comment 52.1.1.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 8:30 PM
Removed by moderator. Comment was deemed offensive, inappropriate or spam.
Comment 52.1.1.1.2 2 Nov 2008, 3:01 PM
Judo...They make a 4 km run with no passangers on them, why not end that journey at Broadmeadow ??? Common sense !!
It's called unwarrented travel... Remember, wasting taxpayers money !!! God, i'm starting to sound like you !!
Comment 52.1.1.1.2.1 4 Nov 2008, 6:25 PM
Richard, in Sydney, especially interurbans, they often run as a non-passenger run from Central to Flemington Depot (about a 14km run), so you could say the same, why not end the run at Strathfield!
And their are much longer Empty (non-passenger runs) including ones of about 50km.
Comment 52.1.1.1.2.2 9 Nov 2008, 3:25 PM
Removed by moderator. Comment was deemed offensive, inappropriate or spam.
Comment 53 30 Oct 2008, 2:52 PM
cities like melbourne are also cut off, in thier case by trams/light rail, in our case we could even replace some busses.
regards
paul de (name withheld by Administrator)
Comment 54 30 Oct 2008, 3:04 PM
I've travelled to Sydney on several occasions for fun day trips. I catch the train into Central, take a short stroll outside to the tram and can easily travel to Paddy's Markets, the Convention Centre, the Aquarium...
Keep the rail line and replace heavy rail with light rail. Remove as much of the superfluous infrastructure as possible (signals, wiring, fences etc). Add in another station (stop) or two. Make it well lit at night. Put in walking paths and cycleways. Benches. Drinking fountains. Rubbish bins. Greenery. Encourage small cafes to set up in between the stations to service the walkers, cyclists, more…
Comment 55 30 Oct 2008, 5:01 PM
The commercial centre of Newcastle is a rotting festering sore that is only kept alive by the residential development that has occurred. The current CBD area (incl Civic) is a mass of 4th rate old buildings with little merit (even though some think they are worth saving for some incomprehensible reason) on narrow blocks that are very difficult to redevelop.
The future CBD has been identified as Newcastle West/Wickham where the lots are large.
Let the current CBD become a residential/retail area and the office/business centre move west to Wickham. Link the two with Hunter/King Street (how about one road going east and one road going west, 45 degree parking and two way link streets?) and a green transport corridor where the exisiting heavy rail lies. Imagine a green strip with walking and bike trail plus a CABLE CAR (cable undergound) that goes all the way to the beach. Tourist attraction, effective people mover and a green link between the exisitng city and the harbour.
The only problem with light rail is that it still looks like a rail line with electric cable etc. I think cable car sould be a winner. Maybe like San Francisco.
Best of all worlds.
Comment 55.1 3 Nov 2008, 2:57 AM
There's nothing stopping a light rail system being powered by battery ya know. The tech for that has come of age.
Comment 56 30 Oct 2008, 6:50 PM
Rail or no rail that is the question-or is it?
A small number of people rely on the rail into the city and therefore when you ask about disposing of it of course this small number will be very vocal in its support.
The issue is not the rail its transport-give those who use the rail a viable alternative and the view will change.
The rail is dangerous, ugly and it cuts the city in half and uses a huge amount of land.
Jodie-do you want to go down in history as the local member who cost this town 600 million dollars in development at a time when the economy is doing it tough?
Play it smart Jodie-the developers want this, the town wants it to go ahead-NEGOTIATE -get the town a deal that gets us better transport while getting rid of the line.
Get a win/win deal
Comment 57 30 Oct 2008, 6:50 PM
Removed by moderator. Comment was deemed offensive, inappropriate or spam.
Comment 58 31 Oct 2008, 5:08 AM
No more procrastinators and negativity...get rid of the heavy rail (yes, I am a user, and an age pensioner). Start thinking in terms of an extended light rail link to, AND beyond the retail centre rather than just to the current terminus. What great possibilities.... a light rail link to all our beaches and near suburbs. And a transport hub at WIckham would be just what this city needs to rejuvinate the west end of town and help reclaim it from the vandals and grafity idiots (no, they are NOT artists)
Comment 59 31 Oct 2008, 10:08 AM
Not long ago I took a helicopter ride around Newcastle and released just how beautiful our Newcastle is/was and how ugly it has become around some parts of the foreshore. The rail line looks horrible, trains that should go are underused past Wickham and number of ugly derelict buildings everywhere needing improvements and investors.
However, I also think that some form of checks should be placed on developers as well. Some buildings like that huge and horrible hotel at Honeysuckle, and some clubs/restaurants taking over the foreshore should be also stopped from putting tables all over footpaths and taking the best water views from general public.
I think the first thing we should do is get some “real” people to become politicians, make same plans that will benefit majority instead of few who make a fuss or donate (pay ) to the party the politician represents, stop the railway line at Wickham, improve parking facilities or provide reliable transport and develop the city or it will simply die. The railway line should go now...
Comment 59.1 31 Oct 2008, 6:26 PM
And who is it that makes enormous donations to political parties? Developers, that't who!! They consisntently ignore the wishes and decisions of local councils. They take their case to either the Planning Minister or the Land and Environment Court. How many complaints were made about the actions of the former Planning Minister by residents of Sydney and elsewhere??
Comment 60 31 Oct 2008, 4:22 PM
MISSING THE POINT ! When a forum invites Novocastrians whether they "feel that the rail line inhibits development of the City ?", we are awash with irrelevant issues that are using the existing rail as the reason for every failure imaginable throughout Newcastle centre right back to Wickham and beyond!. Try to think beyond the square !.
Lets be honest for a change, there are only a few hundred meters of rail from Bolton Street to Brown Street, that are "open" and not well hidden from view by lines of buildings until the line reaches Wickham. How is this 2 km more…
Comment 60.1 1 Nov 2008, 12:32 PM
As it stands now, you can cross the rail at Merewether Street or head to Stewart Avenue - a total of 2 level rail crossing points between Wickham and Newcastle Stations.
Without a rail line you could cross the line at the following points -
1. Opposite Newcommen St - East end of Hunter St Mall
2. Opposite Market Street - middle of Hunter St Mall
3. Wolfe Street - middle of Hunter St Mall
4. Opposite Perkins Street - West end of Hunter St Mall
5. Merewether Street
6. Civic Station
7. Worth Place
8. 'Town Square' between the TAFE & the new Polyclinic
9. Steel Street
10. Cottage Creek more…
Comment 60.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 4:35 PM
Yes, sure their are only two level crossings for vehicles but not counting Watt St, you have 8 crossing points. They are:
1. The footbridge that leads to both Hunter St Mall & Queens Wharf.
2. The Queens Wharf footbridge beside the above bridge.
3. The footbridge near Perkins St about 300 metres down from number 2.
4. Arglye St (leads to Darby & Hunter St intersection & to the car park) just over 500 metres from #3
5. Merewether St level crossing about 200 metres from #4
6. Civic Station footbridge nearby
7. Wickham station footbridge &
8 Stewart Ave level crossing (both #7 & #8 about 1,280 from #6)
And just under 400 metres from Stewart Ave is the Railway St level crossing.
Comment 60.1.1.1 1 Nov 2008, 5:10 PM
Having a bit trouble with site - that start should read "...not counting Watt St, their are 8 crossing points available to cross the line in total."
Comment 60.1.2 2 Nov 2008, 3:09 PM
So for people with physical disabilities ie: wheelchairs, tell me how many enters for them from the Newcastle CBD to the foreshore & Honeysuckle ??
So take a majority of those access points off. They have one every 1 kilometer, that is reality or are we forgeting about people with disabilities ?
Comment 60.1.2.1 2 Nov 2008, 3:24 PM
Richard, what access points are there around all of the buildings in Hunter Street?? From the Mall to Dairy Farmers.
Comment 60.1.2.1.1 2 Nov 2008, 7:55 PM
Real people, real senarios & that doesn't answer questions
Here you go with your answer Dairy farmers, go about 200 meters Stewart avenue that's before Wickham station, then we go about a 1.2km we have Civic boom gates(Merewether st), then we go another 1km we have (Watt st). so from Wickham station we really have 2 entry points for people with physical disabilities ie: wheelchairs, that is across the whole Newcastle CBD other than that it is an inconvenience for people with physical disabilities... Remember judogazza... You think West Newcastle is not in the CBD as you have stated !! 2 ground entry points within the CBD... Reality Check !!
Comment 60.1.2.1.1.1 9 Nov 2008, 3:28 PM
Richard, your "real scenarios" are about the silliest I have seen. We live by the rule of "supply and demand". If there is NO demand then nothing will be done. The scenarios you offer are therefore not real as there is NO demand for them. How many people demand the access you have cited???
Comment 60.2 3 Nov 2008, 3:01 AM
The problem here is that you can't just cut off that last few hundred metres. As you well know, a train terminus - especially one that deals with multi car heavy rail - does take up a bit of space and that can't be found between those buildings. The nearest suitable land is just east of Hamilton station. And failing that, Broadmeadow.
Comment 61 31 Oct 2008, 6:54 PM
MISSING THE POINT typo apology, 2nd last para should read GPT (not RBT).
Comment 62 1 Nov 2008, 6:31 AM
City Link ILTS
Innercity Light Transport System
and Associated Infrastructure Plan
Opening the city to the Harbour
Making Transport More Useable and Pleasurable
The Innercity light transport system and associated infrastructure plan proposes alternative strategies for creating a better transport system for the City of Newcastle.
ILTS is specifically designed to promote flexible and easy movement within the city through the operation of a city link Monosystem service in conjunction with the city loop bus service. Whilst at the same time making the experience more pleasurable.
New Regional Transport Interchange Facilities along with new ILTS City Link Monosystem stations would be developed along with a more…
Comment 63 2 Nov 2008, 5:34 PM
I feel that the heavy rail does divide the CBD. I would like to see it linked to the foreshore and the development that has occurred there in recent years. I prefer that the rail corridor be used for public transport bus & or light rail - connecting to a real transport interchange.
I am conscious that suburban shopping centre continually redevelop to stay relevant to community needs. Revitalising is necessary otherwise the subject - CBD, shopping centre,government, school-building etc becomes stale, tired and unwanted. This I feel is evident in the CBD.
I am looking for a government (local,state or federal) acceptance of imagination. Encouraging ideas that generate growth and real potential. This has been lacking for a number of reasons for many years.
Comment 64 6 Nov 2008, 7:07 PM
No-one has ever been told anything of what is happening. All these links are artist impressions, not actual plans.
So really people are showing you things that are not really there, which I will call "what if's", all plans would have to go onto public display for all to see, it's public land from taxpayers money.
This is what this forum is about, it is to find objective ideas & solutions to things that are happening to Newcastle. If you think that this forum is the answer to saving the railway, you would have to be very short sighted, every person more…
Comment 65 6 Nov 2008, 7:09 PM
No-one has ever been told anything of what is happening. All these links are artist impressions, not actual plans.
So really people are showing you things that are not really there, which I will call "what if's", all plans would have to go onto public display for all to see, it's public land from taxpayers money.
This is what this forum is about, it is to find objective ideas & solutions to things that are happening to Newcastle. If you think that this forum is the answer to saving the railway, you would have to be very short sighted, every person more…
Comment 66 12 Nov 2008, 4:43 PM
I certainly do not think the rail line in any inhibits the development of the city. It is there now, runs 24/7, runs regularly, brings a steady stream of people into the CBD. It is paid for, is environmentally friendly and quite economic to run. The catchcry of the anti rail is that it inhibits or prevents access between The Foreshore and Hunter Street. That is totally ridiculous as access between the 2 places is available 24 hours a day simply by a short walk to any of the crossing points available or walking to Watt or Merewether Street. There more…